Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
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03-11-2015, 05:18 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 04:57 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 04:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  A claim unsupported by evidence does not make it to the decision table to be judged right or wrong; it is summarily dismissed.
Agreed. I understand that this is entirely hypothetical "what ifs" that really don't have any real value.

Respectfully, Jason, I disagree.

We are constantly barraged by Christians who come here with that same question, "If Paul didn't actually see God, as he claimed, then why in the world would he allow himself to be persecuted as a Christian?" (Or some variation thereupon.)

If there is a simpler, natural reason for this fact besides a magical vision from the Almighty, it is absolutely of "real value" to point out that his vision had a more likely source (via Occam's Razor) than the one being claimed as the only possible reason Paul did what he did.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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03-11-2015, 05:22 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 03:42 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  As someone who had a vision, I can chime in.

I'll play.

(03-11-2015 03:42 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  What was the vision exactly?

That I AM God.

(03-11-2015 03:42 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  From where could it originate? Could it simply be images and sensory input from within my own brain?

Also known as God, thankyou very much.

(03-11-2015 03:42 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Why did I see/hear/feel this?

There might have been some pharmaceutical facilitation.

(03-11-2015 03:42 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Does it come from past teachings?

Probably. Some bastard child of nihilism and existentialism.

(03-11-2015 03:42 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Why would a deity send it to me?

Why would I keep myself in the dark, silly?

#sigh
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03-11-2015, 05:25 PM
Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
I'm noticing that many religionists (here) too often say "XXXX happens because God" or "I know that XXXX is true because God". No citations, no references, no quotations, no rationale.

Kind of... uh... non-answers? Dodgy

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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03-11-2015, 06:02 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
to Grasshopper
Imagine unlimited space. Somewhere in this unlimited space there are great parts which have no stars, no sources of light. Vast of darkness. God created Earth. God wants to have life on Earth. It must be light from a star. So, God says :"Let it be light" and then causes Earth to move to a place where there is source of light- stars or star. Now there is light on Earth and plants can grow and waters can be divided. Waters below(see) and waters above(clouds)
So, did God create light? Or did God cause Earth to move to a place where there is light?
While Earth in this place God causes stars to be organized in that part of heaven where it is still dark and where Earth was before. In this part God starts to organize Solar System. Later God causes Earth to move back and where Solar System is organized. It is when Adam fell. Everything changed on Earth.
what is heaven? there are many meanings of this word. heaven is place where God lives. Heaven is sky. Heaven is state of happiness.

English is my second language.
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03-11-2015, 06:18 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 05:15 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Alla - What I think you're trying to say (if I may presume to make your argument for you) is that the Hebrew word translated in Genesis as "create" had a slightly different use in the time it was written. Bara' could be used to make (as in to shape or create), but had the additional connotation of "to assign purpose to something". A former member here, a theist, was working on a treatise on the subject on his blog, which link I cannot find at the moment (sorry! Does anyone have the link to Zoebion's Genesis blog?). Under that definition, then, God did not so much create the light ex nihilo, but rather spoke what the purpose of each of the things would be-- in other words, set the physical laws by which those things would operate. He says that this definition makes Genesis simply a poetic way of telling us that God shaped the universal laws by which the Big Bang and subsequent events occurred, including the formation of particles that could emit photons in certain states, such as when the gas clouds collapsed under gravity to the point of becoming luminous... and there was light.

I don't know how much I buy that, but it does seem something like what you're trying to express.
I am saying that there was no time when there were no sources of light in unlimited eternal space. Nobody created light. But Gods cause elements to obey eternal natural laws. These eternal natural laws always existed and they were not created by anybody.
This is how I personally understand what God revealed through His prophets.
There are two kinds of matter - physical matter and spiritual matter(intelligence) and there are eternal natural laws. Gods have perfect knowledge of these laws. Gods know how to organize matter. When Gods give to physical elements intelligence(spirit) these elements can govern themselves and they can obey natural laws. Gods observe and if they like what they observe they say: "It is good".
"It is good" the best and the shortest way to show that Gods are satisfied with their organizing skills and with how elements govern themselves.
Because Gods give intelligence to many things that is why we do not see God's involvement. Everything is smart enough to obey eternal laws.

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03-11-2015, 06:46 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 06:02 PM)Alla Wrote:   to Grasshopper
Imagine unlimited space. Somewhere in this unlimited space there are great parts which have no stars, no sources of light. Vast of darkness.

There is no such place. Your knowledge seems very, very limited.

Pro tip: The universe is finite. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-11-2015, 07:23 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
I dunno. I just can't understand how something could exist without anyone or anything creating it. Perhaps my mind is just too simple (many would argue that is why I am a theist....lol). I have to admit that although it is ridiculous for some to believe in an all powerful God, I find it unimaginable for there to be anything in existence that was never created by anyone or anything. Which is partially why it is hard for me to accept the concept of the big bang theory where everything in existence came from nothing by nothing for no reason. Talk about occam's razor. What seems to have the least assumptions? You have:
A. Everything was created by absolutely nothing for absolutely no reason.
B. There is a God who did not really create anything but rather he just "flipped on the light switch" and the animal switch and the bird switch and the sky switch and the man switch ect... like he was playing some cosmic minecraft game in a "you too can become a god" system that even God has to follow. Which by the way, nothing or nobody ever created ever...or
C. An all powerful God who always existed created everything from nothing because basically he could.

Now I know there are many who will argue their case but my point is that for me, I personally have to believe that a God has to exist because it is the only explanation that makes the most sense to me for the origins of the universe. It may not be any God that anyone knows or understands. Ok I am done venting. But yeah.. I have to believe in a God because I am too simple to believe the origin of the universe could have been from anything else.

I just noticed I said "flipped on a man switch" hay yo!
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03-11-2015, 07:58 PM
REBible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 07:23 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Talk about occam's razor. What seems to have the least assumptions? You have:
A. Everything was created by absolutely nothing for absolutely no reason.
As for Occam’s Razor which states, ”Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily”, adding a supernatural being is by far the most unnecessary and short sighted simply because we are still, and will always be, asking questions about the Natural world, but that’s just me.

Then there is the question of Matter, we know it can be neither created nor destroyed, it can only change form and has always existed, not created (Krauss is a good read if you want to try and wrap your head around this https://youtu.be/sbsGYRArH_w).

As for a reason...I’m always amused by the argument that we, life, must have a reason other than for its own sake. We want to be special, but that’s not how it is.*

(03-11-2015 07:23 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  B. There is a God who did not really create anything but rather he just "flipped on the light switch" and the animal switch and the bird switch and the sky switch and the man switch ect... like he was playing some cosmic minecraft game in a "you too can become a god" system that even God has to follow. Which by the way, nothing or nobody ever created ever...or
I can’t even begin to comprehend this Blink

(03-11-2015 07:23 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  C. An all powerful God who always existed created everything from nothing because basically he could.
Problem with this argument is that for anything to exist there has to be a temporal element. If there is a temporal element it then resides within the universe, ergo it could not have created the very thing it exists within; not to mention that saying it always existed begs the question what created the creator? It’s the “turtles all the way down” problem.

*”How insignificant we are, with our pigmy little world!-- an atom glinting with uncounted myriads of other atom worlds in a broad shaft of light streaming from God's countenance--and yet prating complacently of our speck as the Great World, and regarding the other specks as pretty trifles made to steer our schooners by and inspire the reveries of "puppy" lovers. Did Christ live 33 years in each of the millions and millions of worlds that hold their majestic courses above our heads? Or was our small globe the favored one of all? Does one apple in a vast orchard think as much of itself as we do? or one leaf in the forest--or one grain of sand upon the sea shore? Do the pismires argue upon vexed questions of pismire theology--and do they climb a molehill and look abroad over the grand universe of an acre of ground and say "Great is God, who created all things for Us?" ~ Samuel Clemens aka Mark Twain,
- Letter to Olivia Landon (Clemens) 8 January 1870

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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03-11-2015, 09:08 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
FC - Freakin'. Awesome.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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03-11-2015, 09:18 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 09:08 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  FC - Freakin'. Awesome.

Thanks RS!

I love me some Twain Yes

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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