Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
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03-11-2015, 09:28 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 09:18 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 09:08 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  FC - Freakin'. Awesome.

Thanks RS!

I love me some Twain Yes

Clemens and Heinlein are the two redeeming graces of the state in which I reside, as far as I am concerned. Two of the great blessings we've received from the American gene pool, greats among many.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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03-11-2015, 09:37 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 09:18 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 09:08 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  FC - Freakin'. Awesome.

Thanks RS!

I love me some Twain Yes
I finally know what FC and RS stands for! Gosh I am slow. Lol
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03-11-2015, 10:21 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 04:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  EvolutionKills,

There is a difference in having blind faith in things that you don't understand and having faith in God.

God is demonstrated to those who truly have Faith.

That is circular. Facepalm

Quote:You make the same mistake of some religious. All is of God. Healing a child with modern medical procedures and doctors is the work of God. Technological advancement is the the work of God, as man is too the work of God. That's similar to saying that the process of evolution is the work of God, as all existence is, you guessed it, the work of God.

If you just arbitrarily assign everything to your god, then sure. But you haven't demonstrated its existence.

Quote:Your silly. You can have faith in your parents sure. You can tell someone about it. But would they ever experience that Faith for themselves without too being their child? Faith leads to individual demonstratability and verification. Does this mean that some can be lead wrong and be convinced they are right by blind faith? Sure. But that isn't what I am talking about.

Good, because that made very little sense.

Quote:By the way; if you to. an make this distinction then why all the negativity. As if it is my fault people do stupid shit.

Could you try that again, but in English?

Quote:No, you speak or pride and greed, not true Faith and rightious living under God.

Woo woo word salad Bs. You sure are a whiny little thing aren't you. I really feel bad for you. What I speak isn't woo.

Pro tip: Yes, it is.

Quote:I will gladly face pain without end or death at this very moment is what I say is bs, or fluffed up for the masses.

Empty words. That's the 'May Lightning Strike Me Dead' fallacy.

Quote:Alright, let me explain again that sin is synonymous with greed and things that caused a negative effect on existence. Prove it exists? Politics, mass murders, child abuse just a couple of examples. Are you one of those people that thing there is no right and wrong? No morality? Oh, wait, you may be, you think everything happened from chance don't you? Like chaos, or survival of the fittest type stuff? Yeah, that doesn't lead to negative outcomes at all, ever...

There is no force of evil, there is only people doing evil things, or doing things that, unforeseen, result in evil.

Evolution causes untold suffering for countless creatures. It is what it is.

Quote:It's not a consept. I don't mean to be vague, and can go into detail on any particular you would like. I cannot fully grasp what utter complete pure Faith might lead to because of the infinite nature of the subject matter, and my limited perception of things that have yet to happen.

Pretty sure science relies on repeatable outcomes. My outcomes have been repeated.

Science relies on repeatable, demonstrable outcomes. Your internal experiences are not evidence as they cannot be experienced by others. You aren't practicing science.

Quote:No I said I have my proof daily. And that your proof can be attained by you alone. I never said that I could prove anything to you, or that God could be proven by a third party other than God.

Your point was that Faith was useless misdirection. I stated that it is quite useful in the right context. How did I prove your point? Never mind, really.

Huh?

Quote:Can you at least grasp that evolution can still work even though God made everything?

Evolution works fine without guidance, all that is required is imperfect replication and differential survival.
If your god is directing evolution, he is one cruel son of a bitch. Evidence: parasites, viruses, cancer.
Didn't say God was directing evolution. It is safe to say that man is the most significant influence currently, based on your descriptions of evolution. Real advancement will come by unified direction under God for the sake of all existence, not just our own.

Oh, and technically, I don't arbitrarily do too many things. I would never assign things to God that are of man(greed). Also wouldn't assign things to man that are of God, a specially not in a nonchalant manner, or without at least contemplating the gravity of such a statement.
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03-11-2015, 10:27 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 04:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 10:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Lets say that this person had no history of psychological disorders and no evidence of anything physical (drugs, brain injury, unintentional inhalation of chemicals, ect) Would there then be a mutual understanding the person's claim would appear to be delusional but due to the lack of any evidence to prove or disprove such an experience it would be labeled as "I cannot confirm or deny the legitimacy of the claim"?

I am only bringing this up after putting some thought into the testimony of the apostle Paul who claimed to have had a vision from Jesus. Assuming that the account as described in the bible is accurate (and I completely understand that it may not but just for the discussion let's assume the account was accurate), what could be some possible explanations for such a claim? How can someone who persecuted and killed Christians have all of a sudden make a complete 180 and become so convinced by his claim that he then dedicated his life to the Christian cause and eventually die from it?

Now I am not a doctor or a psychological expert by any means but could an experience like that have occurred as a result of blunt force head trauma from falling off a horse?

A claim unsupported by evidence does not make it to the decision table to be judged right or wrong; it is summarily dismissed.
How convenient.

At the very least it should be classed as currently unverifiable through standard scientific means.
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03-11-2015, 10:38 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 04:52 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 03:52 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Would you be willing to describe your vision ? What if you asked yourself these questions and yet found no real answer to explain it's origin?
It's not personal, but I'd rather not give specific details. I've only told three people what I saw. It was not about a god, and it was not the happy shiny type. I can say I'm glad it wasn't real or predicted anything. It's one of the reasons horror movies don't scare me.

But I thought about it and realized it was literally all in my head. It did not come from a deity or spirit being. I realized it was created by my brain, that fed it back into my brain during a recognizable and repeatable occurrence.

I'm not sure how to answer the last part. I feel that having had this vision leads me to believe that anyone who can't figure it out and believes it to be real either has a severe mental illness or (as Chas said) lacks critical thinking skills. And again I came to that conclusion as a theist, before my Kabbalist days. Sorry I can't really help with the last question.
Being that what you speak of is of a negative nature It could have easily came from within. It wouldn't have been of God due to its negative nature. That isn't to say that negative things can't come from without. Not does it mean that God can't lead us from within, or must. Your conscience in a way is definitely a link to the right direction under God, and it is instinctual. Negativity is of earth, and whatda ya know? We are of earth too.
Just because something comes from your head or heart doesn't mean it isn't important to life. Senses, emotions, pain are all forms of instinctual guidance for the benefit of our existence.
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04-11-2015, 06:10 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 10:38 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Just because something comes from your head or heart doesn't mean it isn't important to life.

Just because something comes from your head or heart doesn't mean it is true or meaningful.

You need help pops. Get some.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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04-11-2015, 06:12 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 07:23 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I dunno. I just can't understand how something could exist without anyone or anything creating it.

Do you believe god just exists without needing to have been created? If so, what's the distinction? Why is it easier to assume a complex, intelligent being rather than simple matter/energy?

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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04-11-2015, 06:19 AM (This post was last modified: 04-11-2015 06:28 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 10:21 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 06:42 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I will just place this here...

Biblical flat world

The phrase of Isaiah 40:22, "the circle of the earth" is very controversial. There are a couple main views of this phrase. The first interpretation says that the word "circle" means "sphere" indicating that the earth is a sphere. This view seems most unlikely since we have already seen that the Hebrew word gh means "circle," and it seems very remote that it means "sphere" because of the context, and there is a better Hebrew word for "sphere," rwd. In Isaiah 22:18 the word rwd is translated "ball." If the LXX translators understood gh as "sphere," they would have used the Greek word sfairoeides. Plugging the meaning of "sphere" into every passage that gh occurs will result in awkward interpretations.

The second interpretation is that the earth is a round flat disk. Although the ancient world thought the earth was round and flat, this phrase seems to refer to the shape the vaulted heavens above the earth from which the inhabitants look like grasshoppers.

this same fictional book further purports the world is flat,

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

corners? no no, sry it is a round sphere....ah, guess the lord and creator wasnt aware of that.

Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from any place. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.

Job 11:9
The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

Job 28:24
For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

Job 37:3
He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.

Job 38:4-6
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:13
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Jeremiah 16:19
O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Daniel 4:11
The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth

GwoG, this is good stuff and really interesting. I'd love to read more about it, can you provide your source(s)? Thanks! Smile

That is out of my resource library, and one of the few not cited. I found it researching online once, liked it, validated it, tweaked it a bit and posted it in my library. I could probably find it again with a little google magic. Blush

EDIT: This wasn't the site I had found years ago, but it has the exact same, word for word statement. You know how stuff bounces around the net. The vast majority of my stuff comes from books, and courses of study, but having built my reference library over time, I still have a few things that were gathered online years ago, validated separately, and saved. Dodgy

http://www.bibleandscience.com/bible/boo...eearth.htm

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-11-2015, 07:02 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 06:12 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 07:23 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I dunno. I just can't understand how something could exist without anyone or anything creating it.

Do you believe god just exists without needing to have been created? If so, what's the distinction? Why is it easier to assume a complex, intelligent being rather than simple matter/energy?
The thought that God exists without ever been created baffles me too. The shear thought that there is a being who has always been since forever is beyond my comprehension. However, when applied to a being such as God, it only deepens my amazement and reinforces my belief that God is so powerful that He is beyond compression. But when applied to anything else that is not assumed to be all powerful it doesn't make sense to me. The only other option for me that makes sense other than the existence of the God of Abraham is Deism. Now Full Circle posted a video and I have yet to watch it yet. I am very interested to hear what it says. I assure everyone that I will watch it and let everyone know what I thought about it.
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04-11-2015, 07:07 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 07:02 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  God is so powerful that He is beyond compression.

Winzip is of the devil Big Grin

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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