Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
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04-11-2015, 08:46 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 07:21 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 07:02 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  However, when applied to a being such as God, it only deepens my amazement and reinforces my belief that God is so powerful that He is beyond compression. But when applied to anything else that is not assumed to be all powerful it doesn't make sense to me.

What baffles me is how you don't see the double standard that you are applying.
The idea of eternal existence is difficult to grasp and makes you doubt it applies to the universe but makes you more sure that it applies to an all-powerful, intelligent being. If anything, the complexity of the god concept makes that much less likely to just exist without cause, especially when compared to simple raw energy.

We know that the universe exists (assuming we don't accept solipsism) so we don't need to demonstrate that. To posit that something else is necessary to have created it but then also posit that the same reasons that something is required don't apply to the meta level is special pleading.
The energy came from a source.

Not a meta, The.

Infinity is observable within the Universe. There is no reason to believe that just because our current existence goes along a certain path and has a start and an end that these same laws must be conformed to by the responsible source.

Through our limited understanding based on the things we can readily observe, we for some reason, like to think the effect is the cause, or that the governing factors that constitute our existence must also be adhered to by a creative force outside of our total comprehension.
This is faulty.
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04-11-2015, 08:50 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 07:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 07:23 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I dunno. I just can't understand how something could exist without anyone or anything creating it.

Your incredulity is not an argument.

Quote:Perhaps my mind is just too simple (many would argue that is why I am a theist....lol). I have to admit that although it is ridiculous for some to believe in an all powerful God, I find it unimaginable for there to be anything in existence that was never created by anyone or anything.

Who or what created this God? Consider

Quote:Which is partially why it is hard for me to accept the concept of the big bang theory where everything in existence came from nothing by nothing for no reason.

Are you aware of the rather sizable amount of evidence for the theory?

Everything after the initial point is well-supported. No one has an answer to what occurred at time = 0.

Quote:Talk about occam's razor. What seems to have the least assumptions? You have:
A. Everything was created by absolutely nothing for absolutely no reason.

No. It is as yet not known what happened at t₀.

Quote:B. There is a God who did not really create anything but rather he just "flipped on the light switch" and the animal switch and the bird switch and the sky switch and the man switch ect... like he was playing some cosmic minecraft game in a "you too can become a god" system that even God has to follow. Which by the way, nothing or nobody ever created ever...or

Who or what created this God? Consider

Quote:C. An all powerful God who always existed created everything from nothing because basically he could.

If God always existed, then why is it difficult to suppose that what makes up our universe always existed? Consider

Occam's Razor - cut out the middle man.

Quote:Now I know there are many who will argue their case but my point is that for me, I personally have to believe that a God has to exist because it is the only explanation that makes the most sense to me for the origins of the universe.

Who or what created this God? Consider

Quote:It may not be any God that anyone knows or understands. Ok I am done venting. But yeah.. I have to believe in a God because I am too simple to believe the origin of the universe could have been from anything else.

I just noticed I said "flipped on a man switch" hay yo!

Your incredulity is not a compelling argument.
God is pertinent. Nothing cannot be sole cause and effect.

Nor can creation be equivalent to creator.
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04-11-2015, 08:54 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 08:46 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  The energy came from a source.

Prove it.

Quote:Infinity is observable within the Universe.

Prove it.

Quote:There is no reason to believe that just because our current existence goes along a certain path and has a start and an end that these same laws must be conformed to by the responsible source.

Demonstrate that there is a "responsible source". Your imagination is not credible evidence.

Quote:Through our limited understanding based on the things we can readily observe, we for some reason, like to think the effect is the cause, or that the governing factors that constitute our existence must also be adhered to by a creative force outside of our total comprehension.
This is faulty.

You are a sad, ignorant, delusional fool with nothing to contribute to any discussion. Get help pops, you need it.

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04-11-2015, 09:02 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 08:46 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Infinity is observable within the Universe.

Blink

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04-11-2015, 09:33 AM (This post was last modified: 04-11-2015 09:37 AM by Clockwork.)
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 10:38 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 04:52 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  It's not personal, but I'd rather not give specific details. I've only told three people what I saw. It was not about a god, and it was not the happy shiny type. I can say I'm glad it wasn't real or predicted anything. It's one of the reasons horror movies don't scare me.

But I thought about it and realized it was literally all in my head. It did not come from a deity or spirit being. I realized it was created by my brain, that fed it back into my brain during a recognizable and repeatable occurrence.

I'm not sure how to answer the last part. I feel that having had this vision leads me to believe that anyone who can't figure it out and believes it to be real either has a severe mental illness or (as Chas said) lacks critical thinking skills. And again I came to that conclusion as a theist, before my Kabbalist days. Sorry I can't really help with the last question.
Being that what you speak of is of a negative nature It could have easily came from within. It wouldn't have been of God due to its negative nature. That isn't to say that negative things can't come from without. Not does it mean that God can't lead us from within, or must. [...] Negativity is of earth, and whatda ya know? We are of earth too.
Still sounds suspect. Again, if it's bad, it's human; if it's good, it's god(s).

And aren't there many cases of god(s) giving scary visions or visions of war and mayhem? (Revelations)
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04-11-2015, 09:38 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 09:33 AM)Clockwork Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 10:38 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Being that what you speak of is of a negative nature It could have easily came from within. It wouldn't have been of God due to its negative nature. That isn't to say that negative things can't come from without. Not does it mean that God can't lead us from within, or must. [...] Negativity is of earth, and whatda ya know? We are of earth too.
Still sounds suspect. Again, if it's bad, it's human; if it's good, it's god(s).

And aren't there many cases of god(s) giving visions of war and mayhem? (Revelations)
Indeed. Warnings and good tidings are not bad though. They are to help direct us for our benefit.
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04-11-2015, 09:39 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 09:38 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 09:33 AM)Clockwork Wrote:  Still sounds suspect. Again, if it's bad, it's human; if it's good, it's god(s).

And aren't there many cases of god(s) giving visions of war and mayhem? (Revelations)
Indeed. Warnings and good tidings are not bad though. They are to help direct us for our benefit.
So by your logic, I could have considered it an omen for the world.
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04-11-2015, 10:06 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 08:46 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Infinity is observable within the Universe.

Where? Be specific.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-11-2015, 10:13 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 08:50 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 07:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  Your incredulity is not an argument.


Who or what created this God? Consider


Are you aware of the rather sizable amount of evidence for the theory?

Everything after the initial point is well-supported. No one has an answer to what occurred at time = 0.


No. It is as yet not known what happened at t₀.


Who or what created this God? Consider


If God always existed, then why is it difficult to suppose that what makes up our universe always existed? Consider

Occam's Razor - cut out the middle man.


Who or what created this God? Consider


Your incredulity is not a compelling argument.
God is pertinent. Nothing cannot be sole cause and effect.

Nor can creation be equivalent to creator.

Yet there is no case to be made that the universe/energy can't be applied in the same way.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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04-11-2015, 11:03 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 07:21 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 07:02 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  However, when applied to a being such as God, it only deepens my amazement and reinforces my belief that God is so powerful that He is beyond compression. But when applied to anything else that is not assumed to be all powerful it doesn't make sense to me.

What baffles me is how you don't see the double standard that you are applying.
The idea of eternal existence is difficult to grasp and makes you doubt it applies to the universe but makes you more sure that it applies to an all-powerful, intelligent being. If anything, the complexity of the god concept makes that much less likely to just exist without cause, especially when compared to simple raw energy.

We know that the universe exists (assuming we don't accept solipsism) so we don't need to demonstrate that. To posit that something else is necessary to have created it but then also posit that the same reasons that something is required don't apply to the meta level is special pleading.
I understand how my views on existence may seem ridiculous to many on this forum and I am completely fine with it. However, I honestly don't see a double standard. It is not a double standard to say that I can not believe that the existence of all matter is infinite or came to exist without a creator but rather believe that an all powerful God who is beyond any human comprehension had the power to do so. It is not a double standard be unable to fathom the idea that absolutely nothing created everything for absolutely no reason but rather think it is more likely that something or someone created everything from absolutely nothing because it had the power to do so. This being doesn't even need to have a reason. Even the thought of Deism seems more plausible than atheistic explanations. Now I am no scientist (obviously ) but isn't there a law of thermodynamics that stated matter and energy can neither be created or destroyed? So even the thought of a singularity of nothing spontaneously burst into everything goes against the laws of physics.

Now like I said, these are my personal beliefs. I am in no way trying to change anyone's opinions. If you think I am insane that is fine. However, from my point of view, the very same reasons why many believe my beliefs (specifically in regards to the origins of the universe) are ridiculous is how I look at atheistic explanation to the origins of the universe.

But you have to understand I cannot accept an atheistic explanation unless someone gives me absolute proof that the universe was in fact created from nothing by nothing. The best you can hope for is to prove the God of Abraham does not exist (also impossible to do) to convert me to deism.
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