Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
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04-11-2015, 02:54 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 02:48 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 02:35 PM)morondog Wrote:  I appreciate a theist with a sense of humour Smile But I hope this isn't a dodge, amigo. Can you really explain what's so convincing about the Jesus story - or other religious story of your choice?
Well... to answer your question is difficult to articulate (as you probably expected). I recommend reading a book called "A Case For Christ" by Lee Stobel. You may or may not have heard of it. But basically the author was an investigative journalist and an atheist. When his wife became a christian he set out to use his investigative skills to act as a prosecuting attorney of sorts to debunk Christianity. However during the two year investigation he becomes convinced of the evidence and ironically becomes a christian. I would check it out.

Let's just say that I've done the same things as Strobel, with different results. I actually used to be a Christian (Catholic, to be precise), and the more I learned about Christianity and the Bible, the more absurd it seemed. At this point in my life, religion in general and Christianity in particular has no remaining credibility. I haven't read Strobel's book, but I also haven't heard or read anything that makes me want to read it. Many people have looked at the same data and reached my conclusion rather than his. I color him gullible.
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04-11-2015, 03:01 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 02:48 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 02:35 PM)morondog Wrote:  I appreciate a theist with a sense of humour Smile But I hope this isn't a dodge, amigo. Can you really explain what's so convincing about the Jesus story - or other religious story of your choice?
Well... to answer your question is difficult to articulate (as you probably expected). I recommend reading a book called "A Case For Christ" by Lee Stobel. You may or may not have heard of it. But basically the author was an investigative journalist and an atheist. When his wife became a christian he set out to use his investigative skills to act as a prosecuting attorney of sorts to debunk Christianity. However during the two year investigation he becomes convinced of the evidence and ironically becomes a christian. I would check it out.

Shamwari, that book... eish. Someone'll be along with the youtube link just now, there's a lad who's done a very nice debunking. Name of Steve Shives IIRC. I have actually in the long long ago *attempted* to read it, but it was too crap. I blotted it from my mind.

To be fair though, I saw that the quote I answered was actually from Chas, so I'm not gonna pursue this further - you actually had to be asked in order to make this somewhat evangelical book recommendation, which makes you 100 times more bearable than the usual twits.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-11-2015, 03:05 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 02:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 02:21 PM)morondog Wrote:  Theistic answers... you think they explain stuff?

Gobbo the goblin created the universe. Einstein, the man who could only drink one beer, sustains it. It will be destroyed by Phlush, the toilet demon, tomorrow.

Feeling edified? Feeling convinced?

OK How about this. GOD created the universe. He created it for MAN. MAN is the CHILD of GOD. But man *errs*, man *sins*, man goes against what GOD HATH WROUGHTETHETH. Therefore man must be PUNISHED. Aforementioned punishment to be applied eternally post-mortem to the part of man that survives aforementioned mortem. Man CAN be SAVED though!!! IF only he believeth in GOD and accepts that the SON of GOD was NAILED to an ancient torture device to MYSTICALLY make GOD less angry that MAN stuck it in the wrong hole.

What? Number two is more believable? Why? Oh. Centuries of scripture copying by sincere men who thought it was true.

That's literally *fucking* IT. That's *all* that differentiates the belief in Gobbo the Goblin from Jesus.

Please, do explain how the Jesus thing does it for you? 'Cos it way the fuck doesn't look like anything comprehensible, never mind convincing, to me.

Yeah, that. ↑↑↑

When did you stop being a moron, dawg? Huh

I ain't never stopped Tongue I just moonlight as a pseudo-intellectual sometimes Tongue

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-11-2015, 03:08 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 11:03 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  But you have to understand I cannot accept an atheistic explanation unless someone gives me absolute proof that the universe was in fact created from nothing by nothing.
What is an "atheistic explanation"?
There is no atheist scripture, no mandated explanations to anything.
The label "Atheist" is merely used to denote a person who lacks a belief in gods.

An atheist can believe whatever they want with regards to the beginnings of time, space, and energy/matter. Just as long as they don't believe that a magical god did it.
It's not that we will punish atheists if they choose to believe that a magical god did it. It is that this believe would mean that they believe in at least one god and hence can't fit the label "Atheist". We aren't a group, so it doesn't amount to a group of atheists excluding this person.

Regarding the beginnings of time, space, and energy/matter, as far as I'm aware, scientists have come to a naturalistic understanding on the expansion of our observable universe from a fraction of a second AFTER the initial Big Bang event, to the formation of stars and galaxies and planets till now. But they haven't come to any findings as to what was around prior to the Big Bang event. Postulating that there was nothing is nothing more than speculation. Postulating that something can come from nothing is speculation and it violates the law of conservation.
But even the scientific understanding doesn't have to be understood or accepted in order for a person to be an atheist.

There is no "atheistic explanation" for the beginning of time and space.
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04-11-2015, 03:10 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 02:48 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 02:35 PM)morondog Wrote:  I appreciate a theist with a sense of humour Smile But I hope this isn't a dodge, amigo. Can you really explain what's so convincing about the Jesus story - or other religious story of your choice?
Well... to answer your question is difficult to articulate (as you probably expected). I recommend reading a book called "A Case For Christ" by Lee Stobel. You may or may not have heard of it. But basically the author was an investigative journalist and an atheist. When his wife became a christian he set out to use his investigative skills to act as a prosecuting attorney of sorts to debunk Christianity. However during the two year investigation he becomes convinced of the evidence and ironically becomes a christian. I would check it out.




Or this...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL...1FA8681B70
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04-11-2015, 03:13 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 02:54 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 02:48 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Well... to answer your question is difficult to articulate (as you probably expected). I recommend reading a book called "A Case For Christ" by Lee Stobel. You may or may not have heard of it. But basically the author was an investigative journalist and an atheist. When his wife became a christian he set out to use his investigative skills to act as a prosecuting attorney of sorts to debunk Christianity. However during the two year investigation he becomes convinced of the evidence and ironically becomes a christian. I would check it out.

Let's just say that I've done the same things as Strobel, with different results. I actually used to be a Christian (Catholic, to be precise), and the more I learned about Christianity and the Bible, the more absurd it seemed. At this point in my life, religion in general and Christianity in particular has no remaining credibility. I haven't read Strobel's book, but I also haven't heard or read anything that makes me want to read it. Many people have looked at the same data and reached my conclusion rather than his. I color him gullible.
Fare enough. Someone asked on this forum "Why don't you see atheist knocking on people's doors to convert them?". I would have to say the answer is they don't have to. The church does a better job converting people to atheism than the other way around. Especially the Catholic church. I was born and raised in a Roman Catholic family and I was catholic until I was around 21. So yeah... all you had to say is "I used to be catholic" and that would explain a lot.

I am non-denominational. One of the reasons why I guess I am drawn to atheist is because I believe, for the most part, that the same reasons why most atheist reject religion is why I rejected all denominations within the Christian faith. I am sure that being a theist alone will cause many to put very low expectations on me. But I sought to question the church doctrine. Rather than using evidence and logic to debunk religion, I used evidence and logic to debunk many church doctrine. The Catholic church was the first, and easiest to debunk.
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04-11-2015, 03:28 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun.
(04-11-2015 03:13 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Fare enough. Someone asked on this forum "Why don't you see atheist knocking on people's doors to convert them?". I would have to say the answer is they don't have to. The church does a better job converting people to atheism than the other way around. Especially the Catholic church. I was born and raised in a Roman Catholic family and I was catholic until I was around 21. So yeah... all you had to say is "I used to be catholic" and that would explain a lot.

I agree with that, regarding Lee Strobel, umm no - The Case Against Faith: A Critical Look at Lee Strobel's The Case for Faith

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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04-11-2015, 03:30 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun.
(04-11-2015 03:28 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 03:13 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Fare enough. Someone asked on this forum "Why don't you see atheist knocking on people's doors to convert them?". I would have to say the answer is they don't have to. The church does a better job converting people to atheism than the other way around. Especially the Catholic church. I was born and raised in a Roman Catholic family and I was catholic until I was around 21. So yeah... all you had to say is "I used to be catholic" and that would explain a lot.

I agree with that, regarding Lee Strobel, umm no - The Case Against Faith: A Critical Look at Lee Strobel's The Case for Faith
I will take a look at it and compare evidence to make an informed unbiased conclusion .WinkWinkWink
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04-11-2015, 03:32 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 03:13 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 02:54 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Let's just say that I've done the same things as Strobel, with different results. I actually used to be a Christian (Catholic, to be precise), and the more I learned about Christianity and the Bible, the more absurd it seemed. At this point in my life, religion in general and Christianity in particular has no remaining credibility. I haven't read Strobel's book, but I also haven't heard or read anything that makes me want to read it. Many people have looked at the same data and reached my conclusion rather than his. I color him gullible.
Fare enough. Someone asked on this forum "Why don't you see atheist knocking on people's doors to convert them?". I would have to say the answer is they don't have to. The church does a better job converting people to atheism than the other way around. Especially the Catholic church. I was born and raised in a Roman Catholic family and I was catholic until I was around 21. So yeah... all you had to say is "I used to be catholic" and that would explain a lot.

I am non-denominational. One of the reasons why I guess I am drawn to atheist is because I believe, for the most part, that the same reasons why most atheist reject religion is why I rejected all denominations within the Christian faith. I am sure that being a theist alone will cause many to put very low expectations on me. But I sought to question the church doctrine. Rather than using evidence and logic to debunk religion, I used evidence and logic to debunk many church doctrine. The Catholic church was the first, and easiest to debunk.

I'm not sure the Catholic church is really any worse than other Christian denominations. Each has its own brand of weirdness, and we have "deconverts" from many of them here on this forum -- Catholics, Baptists, Mormons, etc., as well as non-Christians (Muslims, Hindus, etc.). I don't have any numbers at hand, but I'll bet there are more atheists who used to be Christians (or theists in general) than the other way around.

I actually find Fundie Biblical literalism (people like Q Continuum, who insist that Noah's flood really happened) more ridiculous and offensive than Catholicism. At least Catholics (most of them, anyway) have enough sense not to swallow that story.
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04-11-2015, 05:29 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel is one of the first books my parents sent me, when I announced I had deconverted. I sent it back, annotated and footnoted in the margins, for the myriad errors and logical problems it contains. I credit that book (and one by Phillip Johnson called Darwin on Trial, against evolution) more than any other single document as the reason for my confidence about atheism. I no longer have that book, having sent it back with the footnotes/annotations, to my parents. However, I do still have the copy of The Case for Faith still in my personal library.

I think the book is truly written by Strobel to sell to Christians, not to atheists, as a way to comfort them and think "hey our experts have answers, too!" More importantly, Strobel's use of the "I used to be an atheist" argument is sketchy, for reasons that are well laid out here:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...ike-you-2/

As the author points out, this rebuttial is a little like the "no True Scotsman" argument in that it draws a distinction between well-informed atheists (like me) and apathetic types (what my brother calls his belief: "Ijustdontgiveafuckism"), but he thinks it is well-supported that only the second type is prone to the "I used to be an atheist" type of conversion to religious fundamentalism. I was given a number of books by "ex-atheists", including the famous Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, and I noticed in all of them the pattern of apathetic-type atheism.

That's not to say one cannot become a Christian after knowing as much as we know about the history of Christianity and the philosophical claims thereof, just that it's exceptionally unlikely, and we should be skeptical of those who claim to be "ex-atheists" turned Biblical Apologists. The more-likely explanation is that they're using a gimmick to sell their books to the credulous who really, really want to believe their side is "Saving souls for Jesus", and that this guy can/will do it if they just BUY HIS BOOK and give it to their little lost son/daughter/friend/neighbor.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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