Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
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04-11-2015, 05:50 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 05:29 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel is one of the first books my parents sent me, when I announced I had deconverted. I sent it back, annotated and footnoted in the margins, for the myriad errors and logical problems it contains. I credit that book (and one by Phillip Johnson called Darwin on Trial, against evolution) more than any other single document as the reason for my confidence about atheism. I no longer have that book, having sent it back with the footnotes/annotations, to my parents. However, I do still have the copy of The Case for Faith still in my personal library.

I think the book is truly written by Strobel to sell to Christians, not to atheists, as a way to comfort them and think "hey our experts have answers, too!" More importantly, Strobel's use of the "I used to be an atheist" argument is sketchy, for reasons that are well laid out here:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...ike-you-2/

As the author points out, this rebuttial is a little like the "no True Scotsman" argument in that it draws a distinction between well-informed atheists (like me) and apathetic types (what my brother calls his belief: "Ijustdontgiveafuckism"), but he thinks it is well-supported that only the second type is prone to the "I used to be an atheist" type of conversion to religious fundamentalism. I was given a number of books by "ex-atheists", including the famous Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, and I noticed in all of them the pattern of apathetic-type atheism.

That's not to say one cannot become a Christian after knowing as much as we know about the history of Christianity and the philosophical claims thereof, just that it's exceptionally unlikely, and we should be skeptical of those who claim to be "ex-atheists" turned Biblical Apologists. The more-likely explanation is that they're using a gimmick to sell their books to the credulous who really, really want to believe their side is "Saving souls for Jesus", and that this guy can/will do it if they just BUY HIS BOOK and give it to their little lost son/daughter/friend/neighbor.
Gotcha.... and I completely agree with you about how it is a book for Christians rather than atheist. However, I was personally asked why I believe in Jesus and what evidence I have seen to support my belief. I only suggested the book because I thought it would be a better way to possibly explain why myself and many others believe in Jesus. In absolutely no way am I suggesting it to convert anyone.

But I will definitely look into the other sources that opposes the book. I had no idea they existed. Then again I never really looked for them.
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04-11-2015, 05:57 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
We don't mind if you answer questions put to you. Really! We actually enjoy the dialogue... when it's a dialogue, and not just preaching at us. You don't preach; you talk and you listen, and we notice.

Notice your reputation number going up, up, up? Slowly, yes, but you just got here and not everyone trusts you yet.. but a 5-rating for a theist who's only been here a few days is better than most of us atheists get by that point.

Theists who are not like you have red, negative numbers.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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04-11-2015, 05:59 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 05:57 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  We don't mind if you answer questions put to you. Really! We actually enjoy the dialogue... when it's a dialogue, and not just preaching at us. You don't preach; you talk and you listen, and we notice.

Notice your reputation number going up, up, up? Slowly, yes, but you just got here and not everyone trusts you yet.. but a 5-rating for a theist who's only been here a few days is better than most of us atheists get by that point.

Theists who are not like you have red, negative numbers.
I have rep! Yeah...Street cred!
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04-11-2015, 06:00 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
As we speak I am on the Christian forum going at it with a "fundie".
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04-11-2015, 06:07 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
I wonder sometimes, when I see those sorts of exchanges, if the fundamentalists don't see open-minded Christians as more of a threat than atheists. We're just "Satan-worshiping", lost people; that's something they can wrap their heads around. (Their description, not my own.) But you, you represent a real danger to their congregation because while it's beyond them that any of their True Christian™ believers could fall completely to the dark side, with us, but you call on them to love those who are not like them... and that's a dangerous proposition, my friend!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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04-11-2015, 06:12 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 06:07 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I wonder sometimes, when I see those sorts of exchanges, if the fundamentalists don't see open-minded Christians as more of a threat than atheists. We're just "Satan-worshiping", lost people; that's something they can wrap their heads around. (Their description, not my own.) But you, you represent a real danger to their congregation because while it's beyond them that any of their True Christian™ believers could fall completely to the dark side, with us, but you call on them to love those who are not like them... and that's a dangerous proposition, my friend!
Yeah. He a fundie who also apparently has the authority to pick and choose what should be in the bible and what shouldn't. Maybe he is a poe. Dodgy
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04-11-2015, 06:16 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 05:59 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I have rep! Yeah...Street cred!

Next up. Narcan.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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04-11-2015, 06:28 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 06:16 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 05:59 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I have rep! Yeah...Street cred!

Next up. Narcan.

[Image: ae6bffcb1ed5b1254be488438bb282fa.jpg]
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04-11-2015, 06:58 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(04-11-2015 03:08 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 11:03 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  But you have to understand I cannot accept an atheistic explanation unless someone gives me absolute proof that the universe was in fact created from nothing by nothing.
What is an "atheistic explanation"?
There is no atheist scripture, no mandated explanations to anything.
The label "Atheist" is merely used to denote a person who lacks a belief in gods.

An atheist can believe whatever they want with regards to the beginnings of time, space, and energy/matter. Just as long as they don't believe that a magical god did it.
It's not that we will punish atheists if they choose to believe that a magical god did it. It is that this believe would mean that they believe in at least one god and hence can't fit the label "Atheist". We aren't a group, so it doesn't amount to a group of atheists excluding this person.

Regarding the beginnings of time, space, and energy/matter, as far as I'm aware, scientists have come to a naturalistic understanding on the expansion of our observable universe from a fraction of a second AFTER the initial Big Bang event, to the formation of stars and galaxies and planets till now. But they haven't come to any findings as to what was around prior to the Big Bang event. Postulating that there was nothing is nothing more than speculation. Postulating that something can come from nothing is speculation and it violates the law of conservation.
But even the scientific understanding doesn't have to be understood or accepted in order for a person to be an atheist.

There is no "atheistic explanation" for the beginning of time and space.
Ok buddy. Let's read the thread a little. You got me face palming myself. LolTongue. If you look at one of my later posts I explained "atheistic explanation " as any explanation that does not have any involvement to a god or gods and is in no way describing any specific theory. Btw....the rest is covered bro. You are preaching to the choir.
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04-11-2015, 07:10 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
I am watching the Lawrence M. Krauss video.
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