Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
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01-11-2015, 06:04 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(01-11-2015 04:24 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'll give her this. Alla actually respects us enough to type up her own responses, and to let us know if it's going to take her a while, rather than just copypasta from religious websites.

If I've never told you before, Alla, I appreciate you for that. I might disagree with everything you say, but I do notice. Smile

Thanks Smile

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01-11-2015, 06:06 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(01-11-2015 05:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  QUOTE FROM THE VIDEO:
Genesis also mistakenly claims that moon has its own light

ALLA:
Really?! Is this what Genesis claims? or creators of the video have reading comprehension problem?

It says: God made two great lights. Moon is one of them.

It doesn't say that Moon has its own light. But Moon provides light at night. The light from the Moon is so bright when we have full Moon that I don't need my flash light.

Light is not from the moon though, it's from the sunlight bouncing off the moon. There is a difference. So, wrong.

When you bounce light from a flashlight off a mirror, you don't count that as two different lights, you count that as light from the flashlight.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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01-11-2015, 06:08 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
QUOTE FROM THE VIDEO:
Yet, there are billions of people who buy into this (flat earth) story.

ALLA:
Not me. I just understand what I read in Genesis. Not a peep about flat Earth, or heaven in between waters, or Moon with its light, or creation of light

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01-11-2015, 06:11 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(01-11-2015 06:06 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 05:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  QUOTE FROM THE VIDEO:
Genesis also mistakenly claims that moon has its own light

ALLA:
Really?! Is this what Genesis claims? or creators of the video have reading comprehension problem?

It says: God made two great lights. Moon is one of them.

It doesn't say that Moon has its own light. But Moon provides light at night. The light from the Moon is so bright when we have full Moon that I don't need my flash light.

Light is not from the moon though, it's from the sunlight bouncing off the moon. There is a difference. So, wrong.

When you bounce light from a flashlight off a mirror, you don't count that as two different lights, you count that as light from the flashlight.
Thanks for letting me know. Bottom line: Genesis does not claim that Moon has its own light. But I see Moon as the source of light for me at night even though I know it doesn't have its own light.

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01-11-2015, 06:42 PM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2015 06:25 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
I will just place this here...

Biblical flat world

The phrase of Isaiah 40:22, "the circle of the earth" is very controversial. There are a couple main views of this phrase. The first interpretation says that the word "circle" means "sphere" indicating that the earth is a sphere. This view seems most unlikely since we have already seen that the Hebrew word gh means "circle," and it seems very remote that it means "sphere" because of the context, and there is a better Hebrew word for "sphere," rwd. In Isaiah 22:18 the word rwd is translated "ball." If the LXX translators understood gh as "sphere," they would have used the Greek word sfairoeides. Plugging the meaning of "sphere" into every passage that gh occurs will result in awkward interpretations.

The second interpretation is that the earth is a round flat disk. Although the ancient world thought the earth was round and flat, this phrase seems to refer to the shape the vaulted heavens above the earth from which the inhabitants look like grasshoppers.

this same fictional book further purports the world is flat,

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

corners? no no, sry it is a round sphere....ah, guess the lord and creator wasnt aware of that.

Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from any place. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.

Job 11:9
The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

Job 28:24
For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

Job 37:3
He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.

Job 38:4-6
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:13
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Jeremiah 16:19
O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Daniel 4:11
The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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01-11-2015, 06:45 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(01-11-2015 06:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  There are many things before god. But I can give you some very specific examples. There are other gods before god, there are other worlds before god, there is eternal matter before god.
Is this still too vogue for you?
But that just goes into an infinite regression. Furthermore, how do I know I'm worshipping the correct god, because the god here may not be the original, actual god. I am, however, curious as to what you believe came first.

(01-11-2015 06:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  I don't know what you are talking about? what do you mean "the same"?
Because in your comparison, we are the same, this god, you, me, all of us.
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01-11-2015, 06:54 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(01-11-2015 04:57 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It seems you are refering to assertions made by some people whom you refer to as "his prophets"
Yes, in this post I referred to God's prophets only.
(01-11-2015 04:57 PM)Stevil Wrote:  How can we verify that god is indeed either intelligent or a being?
You don't have to verify this. If you verify then you can not have faith in God. If you don't have faith in God but you have perfect knowledge about Him then you can not do what you came to do here on Earth.
(01-11-2015 04:57 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Can we meet this being to assess for ourselves that it is indeed a beeing? Can we get it to participate in an IQ test so that we can somewhat test its intelligence levels. I'd also like to get it to do an EQ test aswell.
If we do this now there is no point to live here on earth in mortal physical bodies.
(01-11-2015 04:57 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I'm still not clear on this answer. Is your god a carbon based life form? Does it have DNA? Does it require to metabolise in order to generate energy required to live?
I don't know, He didn't reveal this information. He only revealed that He is immortal Man who has tangible perfect resurrected glorified physical body "flesh and bones" no blood.
(01-11-2015 04:57 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Where is your god? What SpaceTime does it occupy?
He didn't reveal. May be He is somewhere in our Galaxy, may be in one of galaxies.
(01-11-2015 04:57 PM)Stevil Wrote:  What impact does your god's physical presence have on the nearby environment?
No impact. It is protected from Him. God calls it "veil". If there was no veil we would be dead. God said: no man can see God and live"
God is source of great light and radiation.
(01-11-2015 04:57 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 04:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  Q: how is god able to think without a physical brain?
A: He has physical brain.
Does this mean that your god is an evolved creature?
aren't we all? Smile
(01-11-2015 04:57 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Can we observe your god's physical brain? Can we do an MRI scan, it would be interesting to see whether it functions similar or different to that of a human brain.
I already answered why we can't now.
(01-11-2015 04:57 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 04:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  But those spirits who do not have physical body have brains which are organized from spiritual matter.
What is spiritual matter?
What was the name of the scientist whom first discovered spiritual matter?
What year was this matter first confirmed to exist?
Did the scientist receive Nobel prize for this discovery?
Laugh out load
Spiritual matter is "hidden mannah" . It means we are not ready to know nature of it. But it is matter. If something is immaterial it doesn't exist in nature. .

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01-11-2015, 07:05 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(01-11-2015 06:45 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 06:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  There are many things before god. But I can give you some very specific examples. There are other gods before god, there are other worlds before god, there is eternal matter before god.
Is this still too vogue for you?
But that just goes into an infinite regression.
what is eternal regression? can you explain it plainly so I can understand?
(01-11-2015 06:45 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Furthermore, how do I know I'm worshipping the correct god, because the god here may not be the original, actual god.
Don't worry about it. You don't believe in any god, so you don't need this information. It will be useless.
(01-11-2015 06:45 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  I am, however, curious as to what you believe came first.
There is no first god and there is no last god. Unorganized matter(both physical and spiritual) is eternal, it is not created, it can not be destroyed.
Some organized matter(for example, mortal men) can be destroyed. Some organized matter(for example, Gods) can not be destroyed according to revelations from our God through His prophets.
(01-11-2015 06:45 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 06:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  I don't know what you are talking about? what do you mean "the same"?
Because in your comparison, we are the same, this god, you, me, all of us.
You are human, I am human. Are we the same? and what do you mean by "the same"?

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01-11-2015, 07:09 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(01-11-2015 06:42 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I will just place this here...

Biblical flat world

The phrase of Isaiah 40:22, "the circle of the earth" is very controversial. There are a couple main views of this phrase. The first interpretation says that the word "circle" means "sphere" indicating that the earth is a sphere. This view seems most unlikely since we have all ready seen that the Hebrew word gh means "circle," and it seems very remote that it means "sphere" because of the context, and there is a better Hebrew word for "sphere," rwd. In Isaiah 22:18 the word rwd is translated "ball." If the LXX translators understood gh as "sphere," they would have used the Greek word sfairoeides. Plugging the meaning of "sphere" into every passage that gh occurs will result in awkward interpretations.

The second interpretation is that the earth is a round flat disk. Although the ancient world thought the earth was round and flat, this phrase seems to refer to the shape the vaulted heavens above the earth from which the inhabitants look like grasshoppers.

this same fictional book further purports the world is flat,

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

corners? no no, sry it is a round sphere....ah, guess the lord and creator wasnt aware of that.

Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from any place. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.

Job 11:9
The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

Job 28:24
For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

Job 37:3
He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.

Job 38:4-6
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:13
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Jeremiah 16:19
O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Daniel 4:11
The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth

In most if not in all of these quotes symbolism is used. Prophets are like poets sometimes. They like this kind of language - symbolism, symbolism, symbolism. Thumbsup

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01-11-2015, 07:33 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(01-11-2015 06:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 04:57 PM)Stevil Wrote:  How can we verify that god is indeed either intelligent or a being?
You don't have to verify this. If you verify then you can not have faith in God. If you don't have faith in God but you have perfect knowledge about Him then you can not do what you came to do here on Earth.
When you say "faith" I assume you mean to believe without evidence.
Without any evidence, how do you determine if a claim is true or not?

Just yesterday my 6 year old daughter asked me if I was making popcorn. I said no I am not making popcorn. She told me that I was lying and that I was making popcorn. I asked her how she knows. She told me she could see a pot on the stove which I was standing next to and a bag of popcorn cernals in my hand.
I told her that people can and do lie and that evidence never lies. I was very proud of my girl for doubting what I asserted and for instead looking towards clues and evidence and making a conclusion for herself.

Do you see it as a virtue to believe what your assumed prophets say rather than to look for clues and evidence?
Do you think I should punish my 6 year old for doubting what I tell her, for calling me a liar?
Of course I am not prophet of your god, but what if I claimed to be a prophet of your god. Do you look to verify that claim or do you have faith in me and my claims? At what point is a person to be punished for not believing or rewarded for believing (without evidence)?
(01-11-2015 06:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  Spiritual matter is "hidden mannah" . It means we are not ready to know nature of it. But it is matter. If something is immaterial it doesn't exist in nature. .
So how do you know that spiritual matter exists if you do not know its nature, if you have never detected it?
You assume your god exists and therefore you assume your spiritual matter exists. If spiritual matter exists then might solve your problem of "What is god made of". If it doesn't exist, it we will never know because no-one can prove that it doesn't exist as it is unverifiable and unfalsifiable. It seems to me that you can just make stuff up and then choose to belief in it. Is this your method of discovery of supernatural knowledge. Or do you just believe what certain other people say, e.g. your prophets, your spiritual advisors?
Ultimately, how can you tell if these advisors are making this stuff up or if they have a real method for discovery?
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