Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
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05-11-2015, 11:22 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(05-11-2015 11:02 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I know this is a lot to swallow. I know I don't really know any of you so I don't really know why I feel the need to share all this personal information. But Chas, I hope this answers your question on why my faith in Christ was critical to getting me through the grief of my wife's murder.

No, not even close.
I am sorry for your loss, but one survivor is not a miracle, and sure as fuck isn't the act of a loving god.

You were emotionally needy and you grabbed on to the delusion. It may make you feel better, but it is sick, twisted logic.

Quote:I know you and many others don't believe in God. That's fine. You will get no judgment from me. However I just hope that my testimony can be used as an example that religion can in fact have a very positive impact on people's lives. Without it I would be a much angrier and hateful person who still grieved for his wife.

There are healthier ways to address anger and grieving.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-11-2015, 11:25 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(05-11-2015 10:11 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Jason - What I appreciate most, aside from your willingness to take your duty to serve as a Chaplain seriously enough to learn the beliefs of all for whom you will hold that responsibility, is that you are so understanding of our skepticism about your emotional trauma and its religious overtones. It is a sign that you may indeed have the emotional maturity to handle that job, and may do very well at it.

It is not personal, with us; we simply seek to find the most reasonable explanation for things. That often involves a very--let's call it "intense"--form of inquiry which may seem like we're trying to flay you open because you think differently than we do. That's not the case. One of our biggest complaints about religion is that it designates certain things "off limits" to such skeptical inquiry, tries to place religious ideas on a pedestal which cannot be reached by the inquiring/skeptical mind, and takes offense at our attempts to treat all ideas equally.

Granted, there are just as many atheists who are offensively bad at doing so as there are Christians who are offensively bad at sharing their faith; neither is a true reflection on the actual belief structure or ideology, per se.

Edit to Add: This is not, repeat NOT, directed at anyone in particular.
Thanks. Like I said I have tough skin and I like to think I can handle most critisms . However whisky is really testing me. Is he a poe? I don't think I can take him seriously. Regardless I may have to hit the ignore button on him.
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05-11-2015, 11:26 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(05-11-2015 11:12 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 09:09 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Not by me you bloody weren't. I asked you multiple questions to which you refused to answer, obfuscated, and out right attempted to dodge.

Because people who make decisions based on a faulty and delusional world view frequently make terrible or outright harmful decisions, both to themselves and others. Because those people have children and pass their superstitious nonsense on through indoctrination to those children instead of things that are ACTUALLY helpful such as reason and critical thinking. I care what, and more importantly why, you believe because I care about the welfare of people and I'd rather not see the species be bogged down by superstitious nonsense or worse be dragged backwards in to the kind of barbaric, primitive, savagery that was commonplace when people like you, the irrational and superstitious, were the ones with all the power.


1.) "I can't imagine a better answer.....so therefore god dun it!" is not just a logical fallacy it's one of the many peaks in the mountain range of personal ignorance. Your lack of an imagination is not an argument mate.
2.) There are also several uh... dozen competing hypothesis for the origin of the universe that are vastly more complex and well written than "everything from nothing for no reason herp a derp". Which by the way is not the stance of ANY physicist that I am aware of. Perhaps the reason you think "an invisible man who speaks to me in dreams" is the best answer because you are too busy dishonestly misrepresenting your opposition to actually learn what the opposition actually bloody is?
3.) If I am unable to provide a better explanation that does not mean that you are rationally justified in accepting whatever pet idea happens to tickle your balls the most. Your position is not justified or rational unless you can demonstrate it's accuracy.
4.) As I said before EVERY SINGLE theory that does NOT require, as it's ENTIRE explanation, a thing that can not be shown to exist is a better explanation then yours. Which is every single one of them give or take. Your explanation solves exactly zero questions about the how and then layers on top of the unanswered questions MORE questions. Your explanation has no explanatory powers and is as such worthless as an explanation. It's God of the gaps nonsense, designed not to answer questions but to stifle questions being asked.
To offer god as an explanation you have to prove that god exists FIRST. You have ZERO demonstrable evidence for this or for the notion that a god could be responsible.

However I have a question about your silly and ignorant misrepresentation of the non-theistic view of the origin of the universe: Why can something not come from nothing?
Why so judgmental? It really bothers you that I am not trying to convert you or push my religion on you...isn't it? Do you not understand that I have no interest in influencing anyone on this forum to change there opinion. It is usually only when someone asked me a direct question or tries to pull the information from me that I finally tell my beliefs. Do you not realize that my end state here on this forum is to become better equipped to protect the religious freedoms of all military service members...THAT INCLUDES ATHEIST FREEDOM TO NOT BELIEVE IN RELIGION!

What impels you to become a chaplain is religious faith, which you got from a dream vision.
Do you really think you will be of value to those without faith in dream beings? Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-11-2015, 11:36 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2015 11:40 PM by jason_delisle.)
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(05-11-2015 11:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 11:12 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Why so judgmental? It really bothers you that I am not trying to convert you or push my religion on you...isn't it? Do you not understand that I have no interest in influencing anyone on this forum to change there opinion. It is usually only when someone asked me a direct question or tries to pull the information from me that I finally tell my beliefs. Do you not realize that my end state here on this forum is to become better equipped to protect the religious freedoms of all military service members...THAT INCLUDES ATHEIST FREEDOM TO NOT BELIEVE IN RELIGION!

What impels you to become a chaplain is religious faith, which you got from a dream vision.
Do you really think you will be of value to those without faith in dream beings? Consider
Of course. If I was in the field with a platoon of Marines in some hell hole, who is going to provide assistance to the atheist Marine who just saw his best friend get his head blown off? Chaplains don't just provide spiritual services, they are also highly trained in crisis counseling. A chaplain can counsel an individual without any religion involved. I believe that by understanding atheism I can prevent unknowingly saying or doing anything to cause him to shut me out. For example, before I came on to this forum I had no idea that just telling an atheist that I will pray for him can be offensive to some. It is better to learn the hard way here on a forum with people I may never have the pleasure of meeting than to screw up in the field when a Marine is threatening to kill himself.
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05-11-2015, 11:43 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(05-11-2015 11:36 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 11:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  What impels you to become a chaplain is religious faith, which you got from a dream vision.
Do you really think you will be of value to those without faith in dream beings? Consider
Of course. If I was in the field with a platoon of Marines in some hell hole, who is going to provide assistance to the atheist Marine who just saw his best friend get his head blown off? Chaplain don't just provide spiritual services. They are also highly trained in crisis counseling. A chaplain can counsel an individual without and religion involved. I believe that by understanding atheism I can prevent unknowingly saying or doing anything to cause him to shut me out. For example, before I came on to this forum I had no idea that just telling an atheist that I will pray for him can be offensive to some. It is better to learn the hard way here on a forum with people I may never have the pleasure of meeting than to screw up in the field when a Marine is threatening to kill himself.

I suspect that your religious faith and motivation is likely inseparable from your world view and thinking. You may not be able to effectively counsel an atheist - you may not be able to effectively communicate with an atheist in that time of crisis.
That communication needs to be two way and that requires empathy. That might be hard to come by with such divergent world views.

Time will tell, but I'm not optimistic about this.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-11-2015, 11:46 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2015 11:52 PM by jason_delisle.)
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(05-11-2015 11:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 11:36 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Of course. If I was in the field with a platoon of Marines in some hell hole, who is going to provide assistance to the atheist Marine who just saw his best friend get his head blown off? Chaplain don't just provide spiritual services. They are also highly trained in crisis counseling. A chaplain can counsel an individual without and religion involved. I believe that by understanding atheism I can prevent unknowingly saying or doing anything to cause him to shut me out. For example, before I came on to this forum I had no idea that just telling an atheist that I will pray for him can be offensive to some. It is better to learn the hard way here on a forum with people I may never have the pleasure of meeting than to screw up in the field when a Marine is threatening to kill himself.

I suspect that your religious faith and motivation is likely inseparable from your world view and thinking. You may not be able to effectively counsel an atheist - you may not be able to effectively communicate with an atheist in that time of crisis. That communication needs to be two way and that requires empathy. That might be hard to come by with such divergent world views.

Time will tell, but I'm not optimistic about this.
You haven't been around many military chaplains have you.Rolleyes

I would probably add that at a minimum, by understanding some of the crap that atheist go through. I can better protect their religious freedoms. Like if an atheist Marine is being harassed everyday by some radical evangelistic, I can consult with the commanding officer to have it stopped.
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05-11-2015, 11:53 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(05-11-2015 11:46 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 11:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  I suspect that your religious faith and motivation is likely inseparable from your world view and thinking. You may not be able to effectively counsel an atheist - you may not be able to effectively communicate with an atheist in that time of crisis. That communication needs to be two way and that requires empathy. That might be hard to come by with such divergent world views.

Time will tell, but I'm not optimistic about this.
You haven't been around many military chaplains have you.Rolleyes

You're not one yet, are you. Drinking Beverage

Quote:I would probably add that at a minimum, by understanding some of the crap that atheist go through. I can better protect their religious freedoms. Like if an atheist Marine is being harassed everyday by some radical evangelistic, I can consult with the commanding officer to have it stopped.

Anyone can do that - takes no training, no empathy, no experience.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-11-2015, 11:53 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(05-11-2015 11:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 11:02 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I know this is a lot to swallow. I know I don't really know any of you so I don't really know why I feel the need to share all this personal information. But Chas, I hope this answers your question on why my faith in Christ was critical to getting me through the grief of my wife's murder.

No, not even close.
I am sorry for your loss, but one survivor is not a miracle, and sure as fuck isn't the act of a loving god.

You were emotionally needy and you grabbed on to the delusion. It may make you feel better, but it is sick, twisted logic.

Quote:I know you and many others don't believe in God. That's fine. You will get no judgment from me. However I just hope that my testimony can be used as an example that religion can in fact have a very positive impact on people's lives. Without it I would be a much angrier and hateful person who still grieved for his wife.

There are healthier ways to address anger and grieving.
Perhaps. But it is the one I chose and it worked for me so Tongue
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06-11-2015, 01:26 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(05-11-2015 11:02 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I fell to my knees and wept because at that moment when I wondered "where was God?", I realized he was right there protecting my son.

This free will is so precious to God that he will ALLOW people to use their own free will to do evil than to take it away. God did not kill my wife, the man used his own free will.

What of your wife's free will? Why did the killer's free will trump hers? God had the power to act and did so in the case of your son but not your wife? I'm sorry man. Sorry that shit happened to you, but... your God if he exists (which is so improbable as to be ludicrous) is evil.

Not only your wife, but millions of other people die of preventable causes every year, yet God fails to act. People live their lives in misery, afflicted by disease, yet God does nothing. God will cure some people apparently, but modern medicine has a far higher success rate.

If God exists, if God is good, if God is all-powerful, if God loves us, then God should be able to prevent war, disease and even the accident that killed your wife. He could have picked that car up and thrown it into space if he wanted to, but he rather allowed the man to kill her. It wasn't even the man's *intent* to kill her, so that already blows your tenuous free-will argument out the water. He wanted to hit the truck but missed.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-11-2015, 02:17 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(05-11-2015 11:12 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 09:09 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Not by me you bloody weren't. I asked you multiple questions to which you refused to answer, obfuscated, and out right attempted to dodge.

Because people who make decisions based on a faulty and delusional world view frequently make terrible or outright harmful decisions, both to themselves and others. Because those people have children and pass their superstitious nonsense on through indoctrination to those children instead of things that are ACTUALLY helpful such as reason and critical thinking. I care what, and more importantly why, you believe because I care about the welfare of people and I'd rather not see the species be bogged down by superstitious nonsense or worse be dragged backwards in to the kind of barbaric, primitive, savagery that was commonplace when people like you, the irrational and superstitious, were the ones with all the power.


1.) "I can't imagine a better answer.....so therefore god dun it!" is not just a logical fallacy it's one of the many peaks in the mountain range of personal ignorance. Your lack of an imagination is not an argument mate.
2.) There are also several uh... dozen competing hypothesis for the origin of the universe that are vastly more complex and well written than "everything from nothing for no reason herp a derp". Which by the way is not the stance of ANY physicist that I am aware of. Perhaps the reason you think "an invisible man who speaks to me in dreams" is the best answer because you are too busy dishonestly misrepresenting your opposition to actually learn what the opposition actually bloody is?
3.) If I am unable to provide a better explanation that does not mean that you are rationally justified in accepting whatever pet idea happens to tickle your balls the most. Your position is not justified or rational unless you can demonstrate it's accuracy.
4.) As I said before EVERY SINGLE theory that does NOT require, as it's ENTIRE explanation, a thing that can not be shown to exist is a better explanation then yours. Which is every single one of them give or take. Your explanation solves exactly zero questions about the how and then layers on top of the unanswered questions MORE questions. Your explanation has no explanatory powers and is as such worthless as an explanation. It's God of the gaps nonsense, designed not to answer questions but to stifle questions being asked.
To offer god as an explanation you have to prove that god exists FIRST. You have ZERO demonstrable evidence for this or for the notion that a god could be responsible.

However I have a question about your silly and ignorant misrepresentation of the non-theistic view of the origin of the universe: Why can something not come from nothing?
Why so judgmental? It really bothers you that I am not trying to convert you or push my religion on you...isn't it? Do you not understand that I have no interest in influencing anyone on this forum to change there opinion. It is usually only when someone asked me a direct question or tries to pull the information from me that I finally tell my beliefs. Do you not realize that my end state here on this forum is to become better equipped to protect the religious freedoms of all military service members...THAT INCLUDES ATHEIST FREEDOM TO NOT BELIEVE IN RELIGION!

You do realize that your claims about wanting to be chaplain aren't some jail free card do you?

Also you're writing on public forum, so there should be nothing surprising about not every answer being to your liking. When you write about god being explanation of universe existing or some such questions are sure to follow.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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