Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
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06-11-2015, 03:02 AM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2015 03:27 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(05-11-2015 11:02 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 05:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your god randomly kills people in fiery car crashes and that is why you prefer to be a theist? Shocking
That's the thing. I honestly lost my faith after my wife was killed. I blamed God for it. I used to pray to God and thanked him for the blessings he gave me. I thanked him for my wife. I said "God, I know what your plan is. You want me to be a loving father and husband."

But then after the accident I was angry with God. I thought "why would God give me these blessings just to rip them away? Is this some kind of sick joke?" I became bitter and angry. I hated the man who killed my wife. I discovered that this man was due in court the next day for a dui and evading police. On top of that his girlfriend who was pregnant with his baby girl had a miscarriage. While driving with 4 other passengers, one of which was his 16 year old little brother with down syndrome, decided that he was not going to jail and he was "going to see his baby girl and [he] was going to take everyone with him". He was also overdosed on antidepressants and illegal drugs.

He went into the other lane of traffic to go head on with a semi truck but the truck swerved out of the way. During this time two guys in the back seat jumped out. The man then floored it and plowed into my wife's suv going over a hundred miles an hour as she was crossing an intersection on the way to the grocery store. My 4 month old son was in the back seat at the time. So needless to say, I was angry and full of hate. I hated that man and I began to hate a God who would cause such a thing.

It wasn't long until the accident was all over the news. There was video footage of the wreckage and one of the videos captured my other son's favorite "horse blanket". This was a blanket that had little horses on it. My 2 year old son could not sleep without it. I made it a priority to go to that wreckage to get that blanket. What I saw shocked me. I found this twisted piece of metal that used to be a Toyota sequoia. But my 4 month old son only had a scratch on his cheek and some bruises on his legs from the car seat. Everyone gave credit to the car seat and asked me what brand it was. But the car seat had nothing to do with it. There was another car seat on the other side. The same exact brand and it was the car seat my 2 year old son would have sat in and it was completely crushed in. But the area around my son was completely untouched. The glass did not even crack which I found incredible because the vehicle flipped down a hill several times. I fell to my knees and wept because at that moment when I wondered "where was God?", I realized he was right there protecting my son.

My faith was restored but I had a lot of questions. I sought to find the answers in the bible. I learned that God wanted people to have the freedom to choose to love him or to rebel against him. If we did not have this freedom we would be nothing more that a wind up doll where you pull a string and the doll says "I love you". It's meaningless. This free will is so precious to God that he will ALLOW people to use their own free will to do evil than to take it away. God did not kill my wife, the man used his own free will.

With the teachings of the bible I had the wisdom to understand that it was pointless to hold on to the hate, judgment, and anger toward that man. Hate will not bring my wife back. It will not help me heal. It will not give me peace. I understood that that man is dead and is being judged by an all perfect being so it was useless to continue to judge him. Rather I began to pray that God would see that he was high on drugs and perhaps in a state of insanity because of how the antidepressants affected the chemical balance in his brain. I wanted to believe that it was the chemicals in his body that resulted in his decision and not his heart. I believed a perfectly just God would judge him for his heart .

I know this is a lot to swallow. I know I don't really know any of you so I don't really know why I feel the need to share all this personal information. But Chas, I hope this answers your question on why my faith in Christ was critical to getting me through the grief of my wife's murder. I know you and many others don't believe in God. That's fine. You will get no judgment from me. However I just hope that my testimony can be used as an example that religion can in fact have a very positive impact on people's lives. Without it I would be a much angrier and hateful person who still grieved for his wife.

I would also like to add a comment for whiskydebates. I hope my testimony proves your statement on how "my life would be more beneficial without the delusion of religion" is false. Forgive my frankness but who the heck are you to tell me what is benifitial to MY life. You don't know me. You don't know a single thing about me. So when it comes to my life and what is best please keep it to yourself. You think you are being smart because you feel like you have something to prove but instead you are looking like a real jackass.


That sucks, and you have my sympathy; but that doesn't mean your train of logic makes any sense.

You believe your god is good and capable of intervening in our world. Okay, assuming that is true; your god is still a fucked in the head sadist.

He let your wife die, but saved your son? Did he lack the power to save both? Why was your wife not worth the effort of saving? If you had the power to, would you not have saved them both yourself?

Free-will is not an answer here. Your god could have magicked your wife out of the way, he could have divinely shielded her body, or reconstituted her after the fact, or any of an infinite number of creative ways to save her without in any way taking away the 'free-will' of the guy behind the wheel. The fact that he didn't means he either lacked the power to do so, lacked the desire to do so, both, or he doesn't exist.

Your god is impotent, evil, both, or nonexistent. I know which one is far more probable, because only one of those answers doesn't assume the supernatural on no evidence. Honestly, which would you rather believe in? An impotent god who couldn't save your wife, an evil god who could have saved her be chose not to, or a nonexistent one who couldn't have done anything anyways?

The universe is ancient and massive on a scale that is beyond human comprehension, and incredibly rare shit happens all the time. Your son surviving a accident as he did is rare (but given the sheer number of automobile accidents each year, is statistically inevitable), but considering that it's entirely possible to do so without breaking the laws of nature as we understand them, it is not "miraculous". He got lucky; your wife, unfortunately, not so much. Shit happens, and the universe is ultimately indifferent to the fate of you or your family, let alone how you feel or what you think; you are insignificant on any cosmic scale.


I'll take an indifferent universe over the fickle whims of a sometimes interventionist, invisible, emotionally stunted, pan-dimensional space wizard.

Plus, you know, there's no evidence for said space wizard.

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06-11-2015, 05:29 AM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2015 05:43 AM by jason_delisle.)
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 01:26 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 11:02 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I fell to my knees and wept because at that moment when I wondered "where was God?", I realized he was right there protecting my son.

This free will is so precious to God that he will ALLOW people to use their own free will to do evil than to take it away. God did not kill my wife, the man used his own free will.

What of your wife's free will? Why did the killer's free will trump hers? God had the power to act and did so in the case of your son but not your wife? I'm sorry man. Sorry that shit happened to you, but... your God if he exists (which is so improbable as to be ludicrous) is evil.

Not only your wife, but millions of other people die of preventable causes every year, yet God fails to act. People live their lives in misery, afflicted by disease, yet God does nothing. God will cure some people apparently, but modern medicine has a far higher success rate.

If God exists, if God is good, if God is all-powerful, if God loves us, then God should be able to prevent war, disease and even the accident that killed your wife. He could have picked that car up and thrown it into space if he wanted to, but he rather allowed the man to kill her. It wasn't even the man's *intent* to kill her, so that already blows your tenuous free-will argument out the water. He wanted to hit the truck but missed.
Well... honestly I have to say those are all very good questions. Unfortunately the only answers I have for those are in the bible. Being that most here do not think the bible to be a credible source I see no point citing it other than to feed your curiosity about my thought process.

I would also like to add that we are missing the point of the post and the point does not require the validation of my beliefs. I was asked how could my religion have helped me in my crisis? For this specific question, the credibility of the bible and the teachings of Jesus has absolutely no value. The fact still remains that the teachings in the bible helped me cope with loss. That is a fact and it is proven solely by my statement.

Let's say that someone read the yellow pages to cope with his loss. The fact that I do not think it logically makes sense change the fact that it worked for him somehow?
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06-11-2015, 05:46 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 05:29 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Let's say that someone read the yellow pages to cope with his loss. The fact that I do not think it logically makes sense change the fact that it worked for him somehow?

If that person also was planning on becoming a Chaplin and hoped to console people through the power of referencing the Yellow Pages, no doubt they'd also be getting grilled.

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06-11-2015, 06:31 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 05:29 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Well... honestly I have to say those are all very good questions. Unfortunately the only answers I have for those are in the bible. Being that most here do not think the bible to be a credible source I see no point citing it other than to feed your curiosity about my thought process.

I would also like to add that we are missing the point of the post and the point does not require the validation of my beliefs. I was asked how could my religion have helped me in my crisis? For this specific question, the credibility of the bible and the teachings of Jesus has absolutely no value. The fact still remains that the teachings in the bible helped me cope with loss. That is a fact and it is proven solely by my statement.

Let's say that someone read the yellow pages to cope with his loss. The fact that I do not think it logically makes sense change the fact that it worked for him somehow?

It is your faith that is going to be the problem.
How are you going to comfort the atheist? With your faith? I think not.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-11-2015, 06:46 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 06:31 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 05:29 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Well... honestly I have to say those are all very good questions. Unfortunately the only answers I have for those are in the bible. Being that most here do not think the bible to be a credible source I see no point citing it other than to feed your curiosity about my thought process.

I would also like to add that we are missing the point of the post and the point does not require the validation of my beliefs. I was asked how could my religion have helped me in my crisis? For this specific question, the credibility of the bible and the teachings of Jesus has absolutely no value. The fact still remains that the teachings in the bible helped me cope with loss. That is a fact and it is proven solely by my statement.

Let's say that someone read the yellow pages to cope with his loss. The fact that I do not think it logically makes sense change the fact that it worked for him somehow?

It is your faith that is going to be the problem.
How are you going to comfort the atheist? With your faith? I think not.
I will comfort the same way an atheist counselor would.
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06-11-2015, 06:54 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 06:46 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 06:31 AM)Chas Wrote:  It is your faith that is going to be the problem.
How are you going to comfort the atheist? With your faith? I think not.
I will comfort the same way an atheist counselor would.

If you cannot find comfort yourself without grasping at magical thinking, what makes you think you can provide solace to others sans said magical thinking?

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06-11-2015, 07:20 AM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2015 07:30 AM by jason_delisle.)
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 06:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 06:46 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I will comfort the same way an atheist counselor would.

If you cannot find comfort yourself without grasping at magical thinking, what makes you think you can provide solace to others sans said magical thinking?
If a doctor is allergic to an antibiotic, is he unable to treat his patient with it? Is it not possible for a medication to work for one but have negative effects on another? Counselors have many different methods to provide comfort and are not limited to a single one because the know that what may work for one person may not work for another.

If I am called to comfort a grieving widow who is an atheist, does the fact that I used the bible to cope change the fact that I grieved? Does it change the fact that I was in pain? Does the bible change the fact that I lost a wife? The fact is that I would probably be one of the very few people in the chaplain field who honestly can look the grieving widow in the face and truly say "I understand what you are going through. I understand how you feel."
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06-11-2015, 07:31 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 07:20 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 06:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If you cannot find comfort yourself without grasping at magical thinking, what makes you think you can provide solace to others sans said magical thinking?
If a doctor is allergic to an antibiotic, is he unable to treat his patient with it? Is it not possible for a medication to work for one but have negative effects on another? Counselors have many different methods to provide comfort and are not limited to a single one because the know that what may work for one person may not work for another.

If I am called to comfort a grieving widow who is an atheist, does the fact that I used the bible to cope change the fact that I grieved? Does it change the fact that I was in pain? Does the bible change the fact that I lost a wife? The fact is that I am probably one of the very few people in the chaplain field who honestly look the grieving widow in the face and truly say "I understand what you are going through. I understand how you feel."

Yes, there is more to consoling someone than merely empathizing with the situation.

You also grieved or came to some mentality of a different end goal of the view. It's not something that could be more harmful in attempting to help someone as well. Though any approaches could lead to such things given peoples particulars.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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06-11-2015, 07:39 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 05:29 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 01:26 AM)morondog Wrote:  What of your wife's free will? Why did the killer's free will trump hers? God had the power to act and did so in the case of your son but not your wife? I'm sorry man. Sorry that shit happened to you, but... your God if he exists (which is so improbable as to be ludicrous) is evil.

Not only your wife, but millions of other people die of preventable causes every year, yet God fails to act. People live their lives in misery, afflicted by disease, yet God does nothing. God will cure some people apparently, but modern medicine has a far higher success rate.

If God exists, if God is good, if God is all-powerful, if God loves us, then God should be able to prevent war, disease and even the accident that killed your wife. He could have picked that car up and thrown it into space if he wanted to, but he rather allowed the man to kill her. It wasn't even the man's *intent* to kill her, so that already blows your tenuous free-will argument out the water. He wanted to hit the truck but missed.
Well... honestly I have to say those are all very good questions. Unfortunately the only answers I have for those are in the bible. Being that most here do not think the bible to be a credible source I see no point citing it other than to feed your curiosity about my thought process.

I would also like to add that we are missing the point of the post and the point does not require the validation of my beliefs. I was asked how could my religion have helped me in my crisis? For this specific question, the credibility of the bible and the teachings of Jesus has absolutely no value. The fact still remains that the teachings in the bible helped me cope with loss. That is a fact and it is proven solely by my statement.

Let's say that someone read the yellow pages to cope with his loss. The fact that I do not think it logically makes sense change the fact that it worked for him somehow?

I think you're a good guy. I think what happened to you was terrible, tragic and unfair. I think you're pretty amazing being able to hold it together and argue politely with us, even when discussing a painful topic like this. It's also... kinda unique... in my experience anyway, that a pastor (or pastor equivalent) would care enough to investigate alternative points of view in order to do a better job - it must be that goddamn sincerity or yours.

I just... I can't see how you could make the statement that God - who is good and saved your son - had no choice but to let your wife die, even if he wanted to save her. I may not admit your bible references as evidence but I've read it several times and have some knowledge of Christian traditions, so you are welcome to actually cite it - I am not trying to disprove your argument (although I may definitely try to anyway, from time to time), more to understand from your own perspective.

I mean, even in the Bible itself God comes across as an indiscriminate killer. Why you'd want to follow that kind of a person I cannot fathom.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-11-2015, 07:43 AM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2015 07:46 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 07:20 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 06:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If you cannot find comfort yourself without grasping at magical thinking, what makes you think you can provide solace to others sans said magical thinking?
If a doctor is allergic to an antibiotic, is he unable to treat his patient with it? Is it not possible for a medication to work for one but have negative effects on another? Counselors have many different methods to provide comfort and are not limited to a single one because the know that what may work for one person may not work for another.


Right, but that can be attributed to different physiology and complex biochemistry, not the ephemeral intervention of a fickle supernatural being.


(06-11-2015 07:20 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  If I am called to comfort a grieving widow who is an atheist, does the fact that I used the bible to cope change the fact that I grieved?


No, but you coped with your grief in a way that is entirely beyond the reach of any agnostic or atheist. Therein lies the problem.


(06-11-2015 07:20 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Does it change the fact that I was in pain?


No, see point above. You particular balm, your psychological salve, will not work on those who don't share your same detachment with reality.


(06-11-2015 07:20 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Does the bible change the fact that I lost a wife?


No, and entirely besides the point; and one would hope you remember that when counseling others.


(06-11-2015 07:20 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  The fact is that I would probably be one of the very few people in the chaplain field who honestly can look the grieving widow in the face and truly say "I understand what you are going through. I understand how you feel."


No, I don't think you do understand. You were angry at a god you thought existed, you experienced betrayal at the hands of a being who had the power to intervene to save your wife and yet did not (in so far as I could glean from your post, forgive me if I've made incorrect assumptions here). This is context that is entirely missing to someone who doesn't buy into a world view constructed upon magical thinking with a cosmology that centers around them. Atheists have no illusion that the universe at all gives a shit about us or our loved ones, we do not cling to the belief that we're created in the image of the creator of the universe, or that he has a special plan for us, that the pain we are experiencing is part of a cosmic checklist of bullshit we're to be put through before the real show that is the afterlife.

There is a vast difference in knowing that atheist's don't believe in an afterlife or rely upon magical thinking for comfort, and truly understanding what that actually means to them.

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