Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
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06-11-2015, 07:46 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 07:31 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 07:20 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  If a doctor is allergic to an antibiotic, is he unable to treat his patient with it? Is it not possible for a medication to work for one but have negative effects on another? Counselors have many different methods to provide comfort and are not limited to a single one because the know that what may work for one person may not work for another.

If I am called to comfort a grieving widow who is an atheist, does the fact that I used the bible to cope change the fact that I grieved? Does it change the fact that I was in pain? Does the bible change the fact that I lost a wife? The fact is that I am probably one of the very few people in the chaplain field who honestly look the grieving widow in the face and truly say "I understand what you are going through. I understand how you feel."

Yes, there is more to consoling someone than merely empathizing with the situation.

You also grieved or came to some mentality of a different end goal of the view. It's not something that could be more harmful in attempting to help someone as well. Though any approaches could lead to such things given peoples particulars.
I probably should have added that the bible was not my only source of help. I went through months of counseling and therapy and had a lot of support from friends. It all was very benifitial in different ways. But the bible was key to me letting go of the hate and anger.

Many people on this forum asks questions like, "if God did this then why didn't he do that?" Do people not understand that I asked myself all of those very hard questions? I assure everyone that there is not one question you can throw at me that i had not yet thought of (specifically in regards of grief and coping after a loss. I found the answers to all of these questions in the bible. But I am not here to convince you the teachings of the bible are true. I am only saying that it is true that the teachings in the bible helped me when I was grieving the loss of my wife. That is a fact.
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06-11-2015, 07:54 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 07:43 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 07:20 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  If a doctor is allergic to an antibiotic, is he unable to treat his patient with it? Is it not possible for a medication to work for one but have negative effects on another? Counselors have many different methods to provide comfort and are not limited to a single one because the know that what may work for one person may not work for another.


Right, but that can be attributed to different physiology and complex biochemistry, not the ephemeral intervention of a fickle supernatural being.


(06-11-2015 07:20 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  If I am called to comfort a grieving widow who is an atheist, does the fact that I used the bible to cope change the fact that I grieved?


No, but you coped with your grief in a way that is entirely beyond the reach of any agnostic or atheist. Therein lies the problem.


(06-11-2015 07:20 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Does it change the fact that I was in pain?


No, see point above. You particular balm, your psychological salve, will not work on those who don't share your same detachment with reality.


(06-11-2015 07:20 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Does the bible change the fact that I lost a wife?


No, and entirely besides the point; and one would hope you remember that when counseling others.


(06-11-2015 07:20 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  The fact is that I would probably be one of the very few people in the chaplain field who honestly can look the grieving widow in the face and truly say "I understand what you are going through. I understand how you feel."


No, I don't think you do understand. You were angry at a god you thought existed, you experienced betrayal at the hands of a being who had the power to intervene to save your wife and yet did not (in so far as I could glean from your post, forgive me if I've made incorrect assumptions here). This is context that is entirely missing to someone who doesn't buy into a world view constructed upon magical thinking with a cosmology that centers around them. Atheists have no illusion that the universe at all gives a shit about us or our loved ones, we do not cling to the belief that we're created in the image of the creator of the universe, or that he has a special plan for us, that the pain we are experiencing is part of a cosmic checklist of bullshit we're to be put through before the real show that is the afterlife.

There is a vast difference in knowing that atheist's don't believe in an afterlife or rely upon magical thinking for comfort, and truly understanding what that actually means to them.
Are you suggesting that any counselor who is a theist is inadequate to comfort an atheist? Forgive me but it comes across as judgmental to suggest that because of my religion I cannot provide comfort to an atheist. Why can't I just simply tell the grieving woman "I am here. I care. If you want to talk it is ok."?
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06-11-2015, 07:58 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 07:46 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 07:31 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Yes, there is more to consoling someone than merely empathizing with the situation.

You also grieved or came to some mentality of a different end goal of the view. It's not something that could be more harmful in attempting to help someone as well. Though any approaches could lead to such things given peoples particulars.
I probably should have added that the bible was not my only source of help. I went through months of counseling and therapy and had a lot of support from friends. It all was very benifitial in different ways. But the bible was key to me letting go of the hate and anger.

Many people on this forum asks questions like, "if God did this then why didn't he do that?" Do people not understand that I asked myself all of those very hard questions? I assure everyone that there is not one question you can throw at me that i had not yet thought of (specifically in regards of grief and coping after a loss. I found the answers to all of these questions in the bible. But I am not here to convince you the teachings of the bible are true. I am only saying that it is true that the teachings in the bible helped me when I was grieving the loss of my wife. That is a fact.


You can get "forgiveness can be very beneficial with the grieving and recovery process" from any number of secular sources, and with good reasons backing it up. One need not assume anything about the supernatural to gain the benefits of such a thought process. Indeed, beliefs need not be true to be beneficial; but their being beneficial doesn't make them true either.

Even if the Bible got you to that point, even if you learned how well forgiveness had helped you in handling the situation; there's no reason to maintain the unsupported supernatural baggage. If anything it just adds more questions and uncertainty with the additional assumption of a fickle cosmic interventionist force.

Forgiveness can work wonders, that's great; just because a select few passages supposedly attributed to Jesus somewhat line up with this train of thinking doesn't mean a god necessarily exists.

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06-11-2015, 08:03 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 07:46 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Do people not understand that I asked myself all of those very hard questions?

They're not hard amigo, they are easy. They only become hard if you insist that God is good and all-powerful. Then you have to find some way to convince yourself why he didn't act. Which you have successfully done...

I think if I push harder I may reexpose some stuff best left buried, so... let's call it quits here.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-11-2015, 08:04 AM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2015 08:08 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 07:54 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Are you suggesting that any counselor who is a theist is inadequate to comfort an atheist? Forgive me but it comes across as judgmental to suggest that because of my religion I cannot provide comfort to an atheist. Why can't I just simply tell the grieving woman "I am here. I care. If you want to talk it is ok."?


Anyone can say that. Anyone can offer to just listen, and sometimes that's all that's needed. I'm more worried about if someone actually takes you up on the talking bit. I'm not convinced that you could carry on such a dialogue in a way that would comfort a non-believer.


I hope I'm wrong, but I haven't seen anything outside of generic empty platitudes, and your own humorous deflection. Undecided

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06-11-2015, 08:12 AM
People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 07:54 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Are you suggesting that any counselor who is a theist is inadequate to comfort an atheist? Forgive me but it comes across as judgmental to suggest that because of my religion I cannot provide comfort to an atheist. Why can't I just simply tell the grieving woman "I am here. I care. If you want to talk it is ok."?

As long as you stay away from teleological explanations for anything. The last thing I want to hear if I have a terminal illness or death in the family would be "everything happens for a reason" or events happen to teach me anything.

Acceptance of how the universe is, with no supernatural explanation or purpose is part of how someone without a belief in the supernatural would cope.

The last thing we would want to hear is some fucked up platitude derived from a belief in the supernatural.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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06-11-2015, 08:27 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(05-11-2015 10:17 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 06:49 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I already have for myself. Still waiting.

Self delusion and the fever dreams you get when you go off your meds ain't evidence my lil' psychopathic serial rapist, and that's been explained to you a dozen or more times. Stop being a cunt just for the sake of being a cunt. It's just tedious at this point.
Never been on meds really my poor lost drunkard. I'm sorry that some of you have some problem with there being one God that is referenced by many religious scripture to the point of staring that I can and will be proven wrong, but that has little to do with my claims, or what I know of peaceable scripture. If he didn't intend to back his claims then he shouldn't have made them. Tedious? This isn't tedious friend. I've dealt with tedious for decades. It has brought about a high level of patience. So... I still wait. I really don't like referring to you as a drunk, but you do so enjoy calling me a rapist don't you. Calm down, have a drink. It will help you cope.
Good luck proving me wrong, or do you have the balls to take on someone else's claim. He is your brother in disbelief is he not.
Best of luck really, I would be quite pleased to read any evidence one might attain in contrary to my knowledge.

Knowledge, I know, right.
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06-11-2015, 08:37 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 07:58 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 07:46 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I probably should have added that the bible was not my only source of help. I went through months of counseling and therapy and had a lot of support from friends. It all was very benifitial in different ways. But the bible was key to me letting go of the hate and anger.

Many people on this forum asks questions like, "if God did this then why didn't he do that?" Do people not understand that I asked myself all of those very hard questions? I assure everyone that there is not one question you can throw at me that i had not yet thought of (specifically in regards of grief and coping after a loss. I found the answers to all of these questions in the bible. But I am not here to convince you the teachings of the bible are true. I am only saying that it is true that the teachings in the bible helped me when I was grieving the loss of my wife. That is a fact.


You can get "forgiveness can be very beneficial with the grieving and recovery process" from any number of secular sources, and with good reasons backing it up. One need not assume anything about the supernatural to gain the benefits of such a thought process. Indeed, beliefs need not be true to be beneficial; but their being beneficial doesn't make them true either.

Even if the Bible got you to that point, even if you learned how well forgiveness had helped you in handling the situation; there's no reason to maintain the unsupported supernatural baggage. If anything it just adds more questions and uncertainty with the additional assumption of a fickle cosmic interventionist force.

Forgiveness can work wonders, that's great; just because a select few passages supposedly attributed to Jesus somewhat line up with this train of thinking doesn't mean a god necessarily exists.
Agreed. You are absolutely correct in everything you said.
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06-11-2015, 08:49 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 08:04 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 07:54 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Are you suggesting that any counselor who is a theist is inadequate to comfort an atheist? Forgive me but it comes across as judgmental to suggest that because of my religion I cannot provide comfort to an atheist. Why can't I just simply tell the grieving woman "I am here. I care. If you want to talk it is ok."?


Anyone can say that. Anyone can offer to just listen, and sometimes that's all that's needed. I'm more worried about if someone actually takes you up on the talking bit. I'm not convinced that you could carry on such a dialogue in a way that would comfort a non-believer.


I hope I'm wrong, but I haven't seen anything outside of generic empty platitudes, and your own humorous deflection. Undecided
Are you suggesting that I am unable to provide comfort and support without bringing up the bible? You are right that anyone can say "I am here for you." However a chaplain has certain privileges that nobody else in the military has. That is absolute discretion. A chaplain is absolutely forbidden to disclose any information to anyone about what is said in confidence. Therapist and counselors don't even have that protection. Even if a Marine came to a chaplain and said that he was going to kill his commanding officer and laid out in detail his plans. All a chaplain can do it tell the CO that it is very unwise for him to come in to work that day.
A counselor or therapist will be forced under law to report such an individual. Many atheist turn to chaplains because of that protection.
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06-11-2015, 08:49 AM
RE: People actually buy into this?
(06-11-2015 08:12 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 07:54 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Are you suggesting that any counselor who is a theist is inadequate to comfort an atheist? Forgive me but it comes across as judgmental to suggest that because of my religion I cannot provide comfort to an atheist. Why can't I just simply tell the grieving woman "I am here. I care. If you want to talk it is ok."?

As long as you stay away from teleological explanations for anything. The last thing I want to hear if I have a terminal illness or death in the family would be "everything happens for a reason" or events happen to teach me anything.

Acceptance of how the universe is, with no supernatural explanation or purpose is part of how someone without a belief in the supernatural would cope.

The last thing we would want to hear is some fucked up platitude derived from a belief in the supernatural.
Agreed.
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