Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
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07-11-2015, 12:45 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(07-11-2015 11:52 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(07-11-2015 11:10 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  People have made it very clear on this forum that there is absolutely no reason for an atheist to choose a chaplain when there are many "professionally qualified" alternatives that are non religious (therapist, counselors, psychologists, ect.) In this particular video that argument turned against atheists.

I don't follow. I saw one asshole suggesting that atheist chaplains notifying parents and wives of the fallen would say that they are now worm food. I saw another asshole saying that atheist chaplains would counsel the dying that they have no future. And I saw a decent Episcopalian calling out the assholes in a way they didn't even understand. 'Cause they're assholes and shit. Please elaborate on your reasoning here.
My apologies, I admit I did not actually watch the video. I thought it was the armed forces hearing regarding atheist chaplains. The clip that I saw mentioned the things I stated above. The committee found no need for atheist chaplains because "there are already secular sources for help" which is not entirely true because you can't find a secular therapist in a combat zone.
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07-11-2015, 12:46 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(07-11-2015 11:38 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(07-11-2015 11:19 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Dig the new avatar.

On a more serious note, I have a few questions for you from the point of view of an atheist soldier if I were in the military.

1. Can you provide grief counseling without religious platitudes?

To me this is a very important question for you. In my experience of breaking the chains of religion it has taken me years to overcome the knee-jerk thinking and responses of my indoctrination. How will you avoid them if you are still fully immersed in them?

Can you honestly say that you can forgo the fall back religious platitudes when dealing with an atheist Marine in life and death situations such as:

Things happen for a reason
You’re going to a better world
God loves you
Trust in God
God will give you strength
God is calling to you
Confess your sins and soon you’ll be at the right hand of the Father
Pray with me

etc., etc.

In my opinion a person like you who is still very much a believer will NOT be able to avoid these in the heat of the moment, at least not without a great deal of self-control and practice.

I can tell you that if it were me on that field and I was in need of a helping hand and a sympathetic ear I would not want to hear any of the above. Your challenge is to figure out what to say to best help a humanist/atheist soldier when the time comes that is not tinted with the religious.

2. Are you trained in grief counseling psychotherapy?

Practiced incorrectly this can have detrimental effects.
"At present (as of 2008), a controversy exists in the scholarly literature regarding grief therapy's relative efficacy and the possible harm from it (iatrogenesis). Researchers have suggested that people may resort to receiving grief therapy in the absence of complicated (or abnormal) grief reactions and that, in such cases, grief therapy may cause a normal bereavement response to turn pathological.[9]” Though I hardly think anything can be called “normal” on a forward base of operations.

Jason I applaud your determination to help others and hope that your efforts truly comfort those in need, having said that I leave you with a nugget from my father-in-law RIP.

My FIL used to say that, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”, was misguided, instead it would be better to, “Do unto others as they would have you do unto them.”
I appreciate your questions and they are very legitimate concerns. First I would like to say I believe I can provide assistance to an atheist without religious platitudes. I have done it before. I believe that sometimes the best thing to do to help is to simply listen or simply let them know "I care about you. I am here for you and you are important to me."

How am I going to prevent myself from the knee jerk use of platitudes? I plan to better understand atheists. It is why I am here on this forum. I want to break free from the religious bubble I have been familiar with in order to learn.

You are correct in your statement that I am not a professional counselor or have formal education on those subjects...yet. I am working on a masters in divinity but the specific syllabus that I am going through is specifically designed for those pursuing careers in military chaplaincy. This includes courses in grief counseling, marriage, ptsd, and counseling to the dying and wounded. The courses are not centered around religion. Now this will hardly qualify me as a certified psychologist but it is a start to become better equipped with the tools and experience to help everyone who needs it.

Thanks for the info. I had no idea that the syllabus for a masters in divinity could include non-religious courses. Consider

What school are attending or planning to attend?

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07-11-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(07-11-2015 10:06 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 10:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  He has the right to an atheist chaplain. Drinking Beverage

You think you live in the Netherlands or Belgium? Ain't no atheist or humanist chaplains in the US Military. 'Cause that would be persecution of the Christians.




Who's the one reasonable guy, in that video?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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07-11-2015, 12:59 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(07-11-2015 12:45 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  My apologies, I admit I did not actually watch the video.

Well, that's rather negligent of you now isn't it. I mean I understand how 2 minutes might be a burden. Tongue

(07-11-2015 12:45 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I thought it was the armed forces hearing regarding atheist chaplains.

I think it was clips from that. Can't find the whole thing online. Gotta be somewhere on CSPAN. Help a brother out.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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07-11-2015, 01:09 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(07-11-2015 11:10 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(07-11-2015 10:06 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You think you live in the Netherlands or Belgium? Ain't no atheist or humanist chaplains in the US Military. 'Cause that would be persecution of the Christians.



Unfortunately Chas you are wrong. In the United States military. There are no atheist chaplains. ...yet. The argument against atheist chaplains is ironically the same argument that many on this forum used to discredit the reasons why an atheist would ever choose to turn to a chaplain for help. People have made it very clear on this forum that there is absolutely no reason for an atheist to choose a chaplain when there are many "professionally qualified" alternatives that are non religious (therapist, counselors, psychologists, ect.) In this particular video that argument turned against atheists.


Except, as I've already pointed out, Chaplains are granted special deference and privileges within the military that other secular options do not have. It belies an institutionalized bias against non-believers.

I believe the phrase would be "separate and unequal".

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07-11-2015, 01:27 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(07-11-2015 12:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-11-2015 11:38 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I appreciate your questions and they are very legitimate concerns. First I would like to say I believe I can provide assistance to an atheist without religious platitudes. I have done it before. I believe that sometimes the best thing to do to help is to simply listen or simply let them know "I care about you. I am here for you and you are important to me."

How am I going to prevent myself from the knee jerk use of platitudes? I plan to better understand atheists. It is why I am here on this forum. I want to break free from the religious bubble I have been familiar with in order to learn.

You are correct in your statement that I am not a professional counselor or have formal education on those subjects...yet. I am working on a masters in divinity but the specific syllabus that I am going through is specifically designed for those pursuing careers in military chaplaincy. This includes courses in grief counseling, marriage, ptsd, and counseling to the dying and wounded. The courses are not centered around religion. Now this will hardly qualify me as a certified psychologist but it is a start to become better equipped with the tools and experience to help everyone who needs it.

Thanks for the info. I had no idea that the syllabus for a masters in divinity could include non-religious courses. Consider

What school are attending or planning to attend?
Liberty University is where I plan on getting my degree. I also plan on taking counseling courses from other schools. Now a masters in divinity doesn't necessarily require the counseling courses however it is required for the chaplain program I am in.
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07-11-2015, 01:39 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(07-11-2015 01:27 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Liberty University is where I plan on getting my degree.

Isn't that Jerry Falwell's "University". Is it even accredited? Think Fullerene's is from Harvard.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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07-11-2015, 01:43 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(07-11-2015 01:27 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Liberty University is where I plan on getting my degree. I also plan on taking counseling courses from other schools. Now a masters in divinity doesn't necessarily require the counseling courses however it is required for the chaplain program I am in.

Whoa. I don't think you'll enjoy Liberty University much. The people there, from what I've seen, tend to sound like your aggressive friend on Facebook more than they sound like you. If you really want to see what we've been talking about, though, listen carefully to the way people talk, in that "academic" environment.

Personally, I think you'd be a lot better off using the money the military pays you for graduate school (since you can go almost anywhere, right?) to go to a high-level graduate program that isn't associated with ultra-conservatism. Princeton has an excellent program, as does Yale, as do a number of state universities. The Catholics have a huge number of really top schools, such as Duke or Boston College.

Liberty University is so unapologetically (no pun intended) radically evangelical and super-conservative that, outside of a military career path, you may be hampering yourself with a Master's from somewhere that throws so much shade. I know that, even if I were otherwise inclined to trust you, as an atheist Marine, I would demur the moment I heard you'd gotten that degree from Liberty. And, if nothing else, since your stated goal is to get the broadest perspective possible, you couldn't select a university less-suited to that goal than Liberty, if you ask me.

The former Kansas Attorney General whose actions were so blatantly and openly unconstitutional (not to mention Orwellian) that the Kansas Supreme Court disbarred him, in that state, moved to Virginia to become a professor of law at Liberty. Just sayin'.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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07-11-2015, 01:51 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(07-11-2015 01:39 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(07-11-2015 01:27 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Liberty University is where I plan on getting my degree.

Isn't that Jerry Falwell's "University". Is it even accredited? Think Fullerene's is from Harvard.
Yes it is. Did my own research and has one of the best programs for military chaplains according to the Department of Defense.
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07-11-2015, 01:58 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(07-11-2015 01:51 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(07-11-2015 01:39 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Isn't that Jerry Falwell's "University". Is it even accredited? Think Fullerene's is from Harvard.
Yes it is. Did my own research and has one of the best programs for military chaplains according to the Department of Defense.

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