Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
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09-11-2015, 02:32 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(09-11-2015 02:05 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(09-11-2015 12:52 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Time was slower in the beginning. We can observe the dilation of time/ space through its expansion. The passage of time was different upon the beginning of its start as we know It.
Like in the movie interstellar? I would have to say that days in gen 1 is not uses to measure time but rather to explain sequence. How long an earth day vs a god day is irrelevant .

But in the end it doesn't really matter. Nobody can prove anything anyway in regards to the origins of the universe.

Sure we can. Google "WMAP"; I recommend the NASA/JPL website, which has several excellent articles on what it proves and why it is so. Just like anything else in science, you make predictions based on what the data suggests, you set up an experiment that will give you a different result if your prediction is wrong, and then you run the experiment to see if your prediction is falsified or not.

What we definitely know is that the ancient Hebrews were not experts on science, and that much of Genesis represents "best guess" imagination, most of which is based on what the cultures around them thought (which no one questions is dead-wrong; only being Biblical makes people keep holding on to the Hebrew version), and almost all of it outright conflicts with what we know about the universe/world, now.

As I've mentioned before, Genesis 30 specifically details how Jacob (who would become known as "Israel", the founder of the Hebrew people) was soooo clever that he gained wealth from Laban, whose flocks he tended. Jacob's cleverness would be the wealth-basis by which he became a Patriarch to be remembered. The only problem is that his "cleverness" in the story is based on an idea which people thought was real for thousands of years... up until only a century and a half ago, that is. People could see that species adapted to their environments and, not knowing about genetics and Natural Selection, they thought that the animals themselves adapted to the environment and then passed those adaptations on to their offspring-- thus it was that "clever" Jacob made a deal with Laban to keep the non-white animals, then cut strips in the bark of poplar branches to expose the white underneath and placed those branches in sight of the animals mating at the water troughs, so they'd "adapt to the environment" and produce more spotted offspring.

There's only one problem with the story of Israel's founder... it's completely not how any of that works! It could not be more wrong. It represents the "best guess" of everyone up until Gregor Mendel discovered how genetics works, and Darwin discovered how Natural Selection shapes populations (and technically, their works were not unified into a cohesive "Modern Synthesis" of biology until circa 1942). It's okay that the ancient Hebrews didn't know how science works, or that they didn't draw the kinds of conclusions we can draw nowadays, since our abilities to test, examine, and communicate among peers to confirm our ideas about the world are almost infinitely better than they were 2000-2500 years ago (almost as much better as 200 years ago!), but it's not okay that people in 2015 still think that the Bible is in any way a science textbook instead of a reflection of the myths/origin-stories of one tribe of Bronze/Iron-Age desert tribal warrior/sheepherders.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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09-11-2015, 04:28 PM (This post was last modified: 09-11-2015 05:29 PM by Free Thought.)
RE: Bibal Cosmos Bullshit
(09-11-2015 11:09 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Free thought. The first use of the term water is metaphorical for void or matter. Matter is made up mostly of nothing, void, and is all connected, and without form, hence the description water.

As has already been said by APK, metaphors exist for clarity: a metaphor which confuses the definitions of multiple things fails at its purpose and is pointless.
Would you care to expound upon you claim that matter is made of almost nothing? Physics and chemistry aren't my strong-suits, but I'm fairly sure that matter is definitionally comprised entirely of stuff, and the gaps that are there aren't void; they are occupied by interacting forces between the atoms, and depending on the structure not to mention the electrons whizzing around the space from atom to atom.
... unless you are going to ague that gasses represent all matter, that it. Gases do have a lot of space between atoms most of the time. Which still isn't really a void because the atoms are constantly moving through the spaces.

(09-11-2015 11:09 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Who said anything about a glass dome. You must be thinking of the atmosphere which indeed is necessary for life as we know it here on earth.

The firmament as classically described is a dome placed over the notably disk-shaped Earth, with stars draped over it like a sheet. Again, it's a useless metaphor because it doesn't actually tell us anything; if it was talking about the atmosphere, which is a multi-layered 'bubble' of gasses held down by gravity, why not discuss that? For a book that "actually describes the Earth through its evolution or change quite well...", it is incredibly lacking in the detail and facts departments.

(09-11-2015 11:09 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Heaven, like earth and water and void and light has many forms in the beginning. It pertains to the universe, the atmosphere and basically all hat isn't physical earth.

D-do you think Earth is the only matter in the universe? Because it really does read that way. Anyway; a void cannot have a form. It's a void. Again, I'm not a physics guy, it's not my 'jam' as I believe the expression goes, but as I understand it, light only really comes in the form of radiation, otherwise it's not light.

As for heaven pertaining to everything not earth, doesn't that contradict elsewhere in your book which says heaven is a perfect, happy place; a kingdom ruled by god where those who die in his service go and worship for eternity? It's amusing that the apocalyptic wastes of Mars (that's a metaphor describing Mars as a desolate wasteland devoid of life, you see), all-consuming black holes, and the hearts for stars are considered such a place.

(09-11-2015 11:09 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Sudden appearance? If one day is roughly equivalent to 1 billion years that is hardly suddenly.

The equating of one day to a long time is a common tactic used by apologists to connive their way out of the problem that is time, it doesn't really work, however because the bible says it doesn't: One day, as defined in the OT was "And there was evening, and there was morning--the (X) day." (See Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31 etc.) it explicitly defines a day as a period of night-day cycle, not in the term of years.

And again, how can something dripping with errors so grievous that they need to be excused away as poorly constructed metaphors be considered an accurate telling of the formation of the Earth and its development throughout history?

(09-11-2015 11:09 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  The first gathering is the seperation of matter from the lack there of. The last gathering is a reference to the division of the ocean due to the seperation of Pangaea. The earth changed a lot in its more early history and still changes today. Your usually pretty quick. Playing dumb doesn't suite you too well.

I'm not playing dumb; I'm reading what it says. It says god gathered the water and then gathered it again and called it a sea; that is terrible writing. I'm not a good writer by any stretch of the imagination (oddly some disagree), but I can see poorly written passages when I see them; redundancies do not good books make.

On to the rest; if it was talking about Pangaea, why did it not mention the other super-continents which came before it or reference it by any name other than 'dry land' so as to be recognisable? Furthermore, 'dy land' itself did not just appear magically; it was formed by the movement of tectonic plates and by the depositing of raw materials onto the surface. It also did not mention in the slightest the continental break-up due to drift. And again, the oceans are arbitrary in the definitions. I am fully aware that the Earth has changed considerably over its time; more than the many writers of your book could comprehend, I suspect.

And for the record, I don't need to play dumb. I already am.

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09-11-2015, 07:19 PM (This post was last modified: 09-11-2015 07:23 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(09-11-2015 12:52 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Time was slower in the beginning. We can observe the dilation of time/ space through its expansion. The passage of time was different upon the beginning of its start as we know It.

You mean like when I was kid a week before Christmas eagerly anticipating a new Schwinn bicycle? That week took forever. Now Christmas seems to keep showing up sooner and sooner every year just to dick with me. Are you talking about the subjective experience of time passing faster and faster? 'Cause there are some theories about that. Or are you saying the absolute objective passage of time has changed over time? Cause that'd be stupid and shit.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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09-11-2015, 10:54 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(09-11-2015 10:55 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(09-11-2015 07:00 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Too bad it got the order of all the events wrong, explicitly stated it happening on a time-line of days rather than billions of years, and strongly implied Pangaea separated within the last 5,000 years.

Your cherry picking is obvious. Your reasoning, ad hoc.
Let me explain something to you that you apparently haven't grasped up until this point. Days represent eons or billions of years in the beginning of the text.

Who says? Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-11-2015, 10:56 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(09-11-2015 11:11 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(09-11-2015 07:00 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Too bad it got the order of all the events wrong, explicitly stated it happening on a time-line of days rather than billions of years, and strongly implied Pangaea separated within the last 5,000 years.

Your cherry picking is obvious. Your reasoning, ad hoc.
Your biased reading comprehension is the source of your unfounded scrutiny.

What is "unfounded scrutiny"?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-11-2015, 11:04 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
Is it just me or does pops ramblings sound something like this:

Much evil soon high in hope do view. Out may few northward believing attempted. Yet timed being songs marry one defer men our. Although finished blessing do of. Consider speaking me prospect whatever if. Ten nearer rather hunted six parish indeed number. Allowance repulsive sex may contained can set suspected abilities cordially. Do part am he high rest that. So fruit to ready it being views match.

Blink

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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09-11-2015, 11:07 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(09-11-2015 12:52 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(09-11-2015 12:47 PM)Stevil Wrote:  ....because, if they didn't then the account in genesys would be absurd when put against the scientific account.

Therefore, in order to make sense of the bible, we must interpret "days" to mean "eons". Now the problem is solved, now the bible is consistent with science. Tongue
Time was slower in the beginning. We can observe the dilation of time/ space through its expansion. The passage of time was different upon the beginning of its start as we know It.

There is no evidence of that.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-11-2015, 11:10 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(09-11-2015 02:05 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  But in the end it doesn't really matter. Nobody can prove anything anyway in regards to the origins of the universe.

Not yet. Drinking Beverage

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09-11-2015, 11:12 PM (This post was last modified: 09-11-2015 11:23 PM by naturalista.)
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
whole bible is a duality based book which talks about the duality of natural cycles day/night, light/darkness, summer/winter, sun/moon, jesus/satan, horus/seth, sunrise/sunset, good life giving spring vs. evil death of winter

12 apostles = 12 constellation of the zodiac the natural cyles, equinoxes, four seasons = celtic cross
jesus = horus = sun
satan = seth = darkness = sunset = SUN_SETH
mary = isis = moon

biblical angels = seven planets of solar system = seven days of week

666 is not the devil but the metaphor for carbon the stuff all life is made of with its 6 electrons 6 neutrons and 6 protons thus 666...

sun = hot = penis
moon = wet = vagina
holy trinity = fertility rites = father + mother = holy ghost = newborn son = baby = created through holy union of sex

solomon = sun and moon = sol o mon

its all about natural duality of natures cycles and fetility

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGnk9J_qKeM

the vatican of course all know this stuff, they just want you to be kept in superstitions and believe instead of biting into the apple of natural laws hidden knowledge
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09-11-2015, 11:25 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(09-11-2015 11:12 PM)naturalista Wrote:  whole bible is a duality based book which talks about the duality of natural cycles day/night, light/darkness, summer/winter, sun/moon, jesus/satan, horus/seth, sunrise/sunset, good life giving spring vs. evil death of winter

12 apostles = 12 constellation of the zodiac the natural cyles, equinoxes, four seasons = celtic cross
jesus = horus = sun
satan = seth = darkness = sunset = SUN_SETH
mary = isis = moon

biblical angels = seven planets of solar system = seven days of week

666 is not the devil but the metaphor for carbon the stuff all life is made of with its 6 electrons 6 neutrons and 6 protons thus 666...

sun = hot = penis
moon = wet = vagina
holy trinity = fertility rites = father + mother = holy ghost = newborn son = baby = created through holy union of sex

solomon = sun and moon = sol o mon

its all about natural duality of natures cycles and fetility

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGnk9J_qKeM

the vatican of course all know this stuff, they just want you to be kept in superstitions and believe instead of biting into the apple of natural laws hidden knowledge

I feel like I've just read the work of a schizophrenic...

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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