Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?

[jason_delisle]

(05-11-2015 11:37 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  

(05-11-2015 11:03 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  He didn't hide. He revealed himself many times in the bible through Jesus. He has revealed himself to me as well. I am not expecting you to believe it. I am ok if you think I completely lost it. If I was in your positions I would feel the same way.

Unfortunately, he does hide. Divine hiddenness is a serious problem with god. If he is good enough to reveal himself to you, or Paul or Moses in the burning bush then he should be good enough to reveal himself to everyone. After all if he is omniscient then he would know just exactly the level of revelation that everyone would need to help them believe. Why doesn't he he do so then? Why does god have to speak to people on an individual basis and not to the masses in a way that is so clear we would know it is him? What your left with is a god picking and choosing who he will play favorites with.

There are sincere, honest people (myself included) who desire to understand god if he exists, and have a relationship with him. Saying that we can't understand everything god does because his thoughts and ways are higher than our ways does nothing to add to the conversation. As a matter of fact it stops the conversation in its tracks. We as humans understand relationships...we know how they work and what ways they work best.

If you got a letter tomorrow that was written from a person who said they wanted to be your best friend, they wanted to help you through life, they wanted to talk to you daily and help you through good and bad times. Your first thought would probably be...wow, okay this is really cool, when can I meet this person? Let's start a relationship. What if that person took the stance...well, you can't see me, and I'm really not going to be talking to you in person but you'll have this letter I wrote to you. That's what you can use to have as a basis of your relationship with me. This would be ridiculous. Why? Because we know how relationships work and we know that the best way to have a good relationship is to interact daily, dialogue back and forth. From there strong ties grow. Wouldn't god know this? Of course he would...but the fact that he would choose to NOT interact this way makes him either kind of a jerk....or maybe it adds the notion that it makes more sense to think a god may not really be there.

There is much communication between myself and God. I hear him. I understand what he is telling me. I know many here think I am wearing foil on my head right now. That's ok. But why do God reveals himself to some but not others? My answer is simply I do not know at the moment.

[Tonechaser77]

(05-11-2015 11:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  

(05-11-2015 11:37 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  Unfortunately, he does hide. Divine hiddenness is a serious problem with god. If he is good enough to reveal himself to you, or Paul or Moses in the burning bush then he should be good enough to reveal himself to everyone. After all if he is omniscient then he would know just exactly the level of revelation that everyone would need to help them believe. Why doesn't he he do so then? Why does god have to speak to people on an individual basis and not to the masses in a way that is so clear we would know it is him? What your left with is a god picking and choosing who he will play favorites with.

There are sincere, honest people (myself included) who desire to understand god if he exists, and have a relationship with him. Saying that we can't understand everything god does because his thoughts and ways are higher than our ways does nothing to add to the conversation. As a matter of fact it stops the conversation in its tracks. We as humans understand relationships...we know how they work and what ways they work best.

If you got a letter tomorrow that was written from a person who said they wanted to be your best friend, they wanted to help you through life, they wanted to talk to you daily and help you through good and bad times. Your first thought would probably be...wow, okay this is really cool, when can I meet this person? Let's start a relationship. What if that person took the stance...well, you can't see me, and I'm really not going to be talking to you in person but you'll have this letter I wrote to you. That's what you can use to have as a basis of your relationship with me. This would be ridiculous. Why? Because we know how relationships work and we know that the best way to have a good relationship is to interact daily, dialogue back and forth. From there strong ties grow. Wouldn't god know this? Of course he would...but the fact that he would choose to NOT interact this way makes him either kind of a jerk....or maybe it adds the notion that it makes more sense to think a god may not really be there.

There is much communication between myself and God. I hear him. I understand what he is telling me. I know many here think I am wearing foil on my head right now. That's ok. But why do God reveals himself to some but not others? My answer is simply I do not know at the moment.

Ok, that's an honest answer. Look i'm not going to sit here and belittle you because I have been in your position as well. I had an incident that happened to me when I was a child that I thought there was absolutely no explanation other than god...but now as an adult who has learned how to think rationally and reason through critical thinking I know there are much better explanations.

But why do you think he is communicating with you? What process did you take to arrive at the decision to know "this is god communicating with me"? Did you examine that process and come to that decision based on firm critical thinking? Or did something happen and you just said, "wow, this has to be god" without really looking at all the possible options and eliminating your biases?

[EvolutionKills]

(05-11-2015 11:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  There is much communication between myself and God. I hear him. I understand what he is telling me. I know many here think I am wearing foil on my head right now. That's ok. But why do God reveals himself to some but not others? My answer is simply I do not know at the moment.

Without evidence, you cannot "know" that the conversations you are having are with anything but yourself.

Talking to yourself (or having mistaken perceptions) doesn't require the assumption of the supernatural, whereas talking to a deity does; therefore sans any other evidence, it is far more likely your perceptions are mistaken rather than you are having communication with the divine.

This is simple probability.

[TheInquisition]

(05-11-2015 11:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  

(05-11-2015 11:37 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  Unfortunately, he does hide. Divine hiddenness is a serious problem with god. If he is good enough to reveal himself to you, or Paul or Moses in the burning bush then he should be good enough to reveal himself to everyone. After all if he is omniscient then he would know just exactly the level of revelation that everyone would need to help them believe. Why doesn't he he do so then? Why does god have to speak to people on an individual basis and not to the masses in a way that is so clear we would know it is him? What your left with is a god picking and choosing who he will play favorites with.

There are sincere, honest people (myself included) who desire to understand god if he exists, and have a relationship with him. Saying that we can't understand everything god does because his thoughts and ways are higher than our ways does nothing to add to the conversation. As a matter of fact it stops the conversation in its tracks. We as humans understand relationships...we know how they work and what ways they work best.

If you got a letter tomorrow that was written from a person who said they wanted to be your best friend, they wanted to help you through life, they wanted to talk to you daily and help you through good and bad times. Your first thought would probably be...wow, okay this is really cool, when can I meet this person? Let's start a relationship. What if that person took the stance...well, you can't see me, and I'm really not going to be talking to you in person but you'll have this letter I wrote to you. That's what you can use to have as a basis of your relationship with me. This would be ridiculous. Why? Because we know how relationships work and we know that the best way to have a good relationship is to interact daily, dialogue back and forth. From there strong ties grow. Wouldn't god know this? Of course he would...but the fact that he would choose to NOT interact this way makes him either kind of a jerk....or maybe it adds the notion that it makes more sense to think a god may not really be there.

There is much communication between myself and God. I hear him. I understand what he is telling me. I know many here think I am wearing foil on my head right now. That's ok. But why do God reveals himself to some but not others? My answer is simply I do not know at the moment.

How would you determine the difference between this "god" communicating with you and your own mind making things up?

Here's a hint- a charlatan would say he can tell the difference.

[jason_delisle]

(05-11-2015 12:07 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  

(05-11-2015 11:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  There is much communication between myself and God. I hear him. I understand what he is telling me. I know many here think I am wearing foil on my head right now. That's ok. But why do God reveals himself to some but not others? My answer is simply I do not know at the moment.

Ok, that's an honest answer. Look i'm not going to sit here and belittle you because I have been in your position as well. I had an incident that happened to me when I was a child that I thought there was absolutely no explanation other than god...but now as an adult who has learned how to think rationally and reason through critical thinking I know there are much better explanations.

But why do you think he is communicating with you? What process did you take to arrive at the decision to know "this is god communicating with me"? Did you examine that process and come to that decision based on firm critical thinking? Or did something happen and you just said, "wow, this has to be god" without really looking at all the possible options and eliminating your biases?

Well... why do I believe it is God speaking to me? What options have I looked at to explain it. I am almost embarrassed to say. I won't get into specifics but all I will say is that either God actually spoke to me or I have completely lost my marbles. I prefer to believe I am not insane. Ok fellas.....let the roast begin.

[Szuchow]

(05-11-2015 12:20 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Well... why do I believe it is God speaking to me? What options have I looked at to explain it. I am almost embarrassed to say. I won't get into specifics but all I will say is that either God actually spoke to me or I have completely lost my marbles. I prefer to believe I am not insane. Ok fellas.....let the roast begin.

Why would you believe that god is talking to you? Let's skip insanity and trolling and we could call arrogance a reason for such belief. I guess it must feel quite good to have opportunity to listen to creator of universe.

[EvolutionKills]

(05-11-2015 12:30 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Why would you believe that god is talking to you? Let's skip insanity and trolling and we could call arrogance a reason for such belief. I guess it must feel quite good to have opportunity to listen to creator of universe.

The creator? GirlyMan posts here all the time.

[unfogged]

(05-11-2015 11:24 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  But if the only reasonable answer is that I chose to believe in God as a coping mechanism to get over my loss, it seems like a fine reason for me.

It is certainly understandable, and I'm sorry you had to go through that, but to be blunt about it that is not a good reason to continue believing. It sounds like a way to avoid dealing with the cold reality of an apparently indifferent universe and that may be comforting but it isn't rational.

[EvolutionKills]

(05-11-2015 12:20 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Well... why do I believe it is God speaking to me? What options have I looked at to explain it. I am almost embarrassed to say. I won't get into specifics but all I will say is that either God actually spoke to me or I have completely lost my marbles. I prefer to believe I am not insane. Ok fellas.....let the roast begin.

Once again if you compare the probability that you are suffering from mistaken perception versus you are in communication with a supernatural entity, based purely upon the later requiring the assumption of the supernatural, the former is far more probable. Sure believing in the later might make you feel better, but that doesn't make it true. And if you're suffering from a neurological condition and you choose to instead go with assumptions that make you feel better about the situation, you're left never actually trying to fix what is most likely wrong with your perceptions.

So not only is believing in the later less probable because of the greater assumptions, you're left unable to fix the situation; because you now think there isn't a problem that needs addressing. So your way of thinking is almost a textbook example of the problems with a non-evidence based epistemology; in that you're entirely unable to tell when you're mistaken, and are left entirely unable to notice or correct the situation reliably.


TL;DR - You are a terrible skeptic and far too credulous.

[Stevil]

(05-11-2015 12:30 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Why would you believe that god is talking to you? Let's skip insanity and trolling and we could call arrogance a reason for such belief. I guess it must feel quite good to have opportunity to listen to creator of universe.

I would assume that he spends much time reading the bible and thinking about god.
In the bible, the god talks to people. He believes the bible, he is taught to have a relationship with his god. Why wouldn't he think that god talks to him?

It is perfectly normal for some kids to have an imaginary friend, I don't see why adults can't have one too.