Biblical Prophecy
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01-12-2011, 06:07 PM
Biblical Prophecy
Ive heard the argument a few times that the Bible has to be true because of all the supposed prophecies that have came true from it. I think one version of this argument says that there have been 2000 prophecies already fulfilled in the Bible.

What would really be a decent response to this? And I'm seriously curious as to what "prophecies" these people are talking about. I haven't really seen much of any at all, especially not 2000. I'm tired of people bringing this up, and me not having anything I can say against it.

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01-12-2011, 07:49 PM
RE: Biblical Prophecy
(01-12-2011 06:07 PM)Neko Wrote:  Ive heard the argument a few times that the Bible has to be true because of all the supposed prophecies that have came true from it. I think one version of this argument says that there have been 2000 prophecies already fulfilled in the Bible.

What would really be a decent response to this? And I'm seriously curious as to what "prophecies" these people are talking about. I haven't really seen much of any at all, especially not 2000. I'm tired of people bringing this up, and me not having anything I can say against it.

Neko, you don't have to know any of the alleged theories to shoot down this theory. The burden of proof is on the Believer in prophecy. "Ok, so there are 2000 prophecies. Can you name a couple of them for me?" Every so-called prophecy can be dealt with with simple logic. The best question you can ask is, "Do you know when this was actually written?" This works for the people who will bring up that Jesus predicted that the Temple would be torn down. Well, the Temple in Jerusalem was indeed torn down in 70 AD by the Romans. Thing is, the Gospels weren't written until closer to 90 AD. Hm...I would like to now make a prophecy about what I shall have had for lunch today. I predict that I went to Round Table Pizza and ate Hawaiian Style Pizza. I can prove this prediction with two witness who were with me. Get the point? Anyone can predict stuff that happens after the fact.

Most of the other prophecies they'll bring up is how Jesus fulfills Old Testament predictions. Again, timing is everything. The New Testament was written as an open book test...the authors had the Old Testament to refer to, so of course as they wanted to describe Jesus, who had died some 50-70 years before the Gospels were written, in terms people of the time would understand and relate to. Because no one can really remember details about someone who died 50 years ago, it's much easier to find stuff in the Old Testament and say, "Yeah, that's the ticket...Jesus fulfilled prophecy XYZ." Of course, no one can verify prophecy XYZ because the only people still around from that time would have been very young children at the time and now older and forgetful.

Just a few thoughts to get you started.

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01-12-2011, 11:56 PM (This post was last modified: 01-12-2011 11:59 PM by Starcrash.)
RE: Biblical Prophecy
There are too many. It's like asking an Xian to explain every bible contradiction.

They tend to be vanilla, like your average horoscope or fortune-cookie prediction, and the ones that are specific tend to be fulfilled "within the gospels" (meaning people who had access to the prophesies and had the power to tell the story of God's life in a way that made his life fulfill prophesy probably did exactly that).

The best quote ever on this subject...

Quote:Sam Harris says in Letter to a Christian Nation, “…just imagine how breathtakingly specific a work of prophecy would be, if it were actually the product of omniscience. If the Bible were such a book, it would make perfectly accurate predictions about human events. You would expect it to contain a passage such as ‘In the latter half of the twentieth century, humankind will develop a globally linked system of computers—the principles of which I set forth in Leviticus—and this system shall be called the Internet.’ The Bible contains nothing like this. In fact, it does not contain a single sentence that could not have been written by a man or woman living in the first century. This should trouble you.”

I would suggest that if you ever hear a specific example of a "fulfilled prophecy" that you look it up in the Skeptics' Anotated Bible, where it will very likely explain why it is either not fulfilled or not remarkable. Micah 5:2 (and Micah 5:6) is a great example that comes to mind that was dealt with nicely within its online pages.

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02-12-2011, 12:22 PM
RE: Biblical Prophecy
Kinda atheist are you? Wink

1/2 punch, ready? No extant future - basic physics - ergo...

Some people's kids. Prophet means "before speaker," btw. Prophet see past, just like prophets of economics, studying trend.

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02-12-2011, 01:16 PM
RE: Biblical Prophecy
(02-12-2011 12:22 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Kinda atheist are you? Wink

1/2 punch, ready? No extant future - basic physics - ergo...

Some people's kids. Prophet means "before speaker," btw. Prophet see past, just like prophets of economics, studying trend.

HoC, this is not entirely true within the Christian community. A prophet is one who speaks for God. It doesn't have to be a fortune teller of things in the future. A prophet can also be a person who tells you that God has an important message for you. Kind of like the Blues Brothers and their mission from God.

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02-12-2011, 04:06 PM
RE: Biblical Prophecy
(02-12-2011 01:16 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  HoC, this is not entirely true within the Christian community. A prophet is one who speaks for God. It doesn't have to be a fortune teller of things in the future. A prophet can also be a person who tells you that God has an important message for you. Kind of like the Blues Brothers and their mission from God.
Christianity... 38000 sects of sheep looking for a shepherd that never existed. Tongue

What is true, according to the Old Testament, is a prophet would do what I just did in the "Set Theory" thread - expanding the vision of extant scripture - as validation of being a prophet. What is comedy, is germanyt proclaiming me "false prophet" in that thread.

On a forum, I am any kind of asshole as I appear. In the real world, I am recognizable to Christians; they don't fuck with this. Wink

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08-12-2011, 10:20 PM
RE: Biblical Prophecy
(01-12-2011 06:07 PM)Neko Wrote:  What would really be a decent response to this? And I'm seriously curious as to what "prophecies" these people are talking about. I haven't really seen much of any at all, especially not 2000. I'm tired of people bringing this up, and me not having anything I can say against it.

As another member pointed out, challenge them to point to the verse. You can then usually destroy that with nothing but logic. If it seems tricky, there is a few good sources:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?t...d_prophecy

~Todd
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09-12-2011, 10:14 AM
RE: Biblical Prophecy
If I seem to be a cheeky bastard about this topic, it is because I remember receiving the the title of prophet from the creator of the universe, and if I can understand the science behind such insanity, it is "love of my Gwynnies" that urges me to pass it on.

Prophecy doesn't prove anything, least of all Christianity or the Bible. If a person makes accurate predictions, odds are they are using witchcraft; and what does the Bible say about that? Big Grin

What it comes down to is the fact that science still has yet to understand time. That means, do more science; that doesn't mean fairy tales are true. Technically, it is not possible to know the future because we haven't created it yet. The creation of future is an inevitable by-product of life doing the business of living. Predictably occurs due to a limited number of variables being in play over a wide field of options. For instance, greed; and an inevitable rehash of 2007 in 2013. Why 2013? Because of all the hype over 2012, the "powers that be" in economics cannot stage another meltdown before then lest things get out of control. Sure, it's ugly and nasty and all of that stuff; but the fact remains that there is no global economic policy that can support globalization; and people care about these issues for about six tenths of a second before going back to regularly scheduled programming and buying another iPhone.

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11-12-2011, 11:54 PM
RE: Biblical Prophecy
(01-12-2011 06:07 PM)Neko Wrote:  Ive heard the argument a few times that the Bible has to be true because of all the supposed prophecies that have came true from it. I think one version of this argument says that there have been 2000 prophecies already fulfilled in the Bible.

What would really be a decent response to this? And I'm seriously curious as to what "prophecies" these people are talking about. I haven't really seen much of any at all, especially not 2000. I'm tired of people bringing this up, and me not having anything I can say against it.

A lot of pentecostal sects use the Post hoc ergo propter hoc argument...(in their youth groups for example) Although, confirmation bias is just as popular. To quickly break down someone's argument, takes time and practice, once you've become accustomed to it, and accustomed to the repetition, your arguments should get even better, but don't let that drive you nuts! Wink

More often than not, once you do this, the backfire effect kicks in and their views become even more entrenched, this is often discussed in atheist circles, how do you approach a theist in an argument, the methodology varies, but it seems the gentler you do it, the less they may backfire...
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12-12-2011, 08:49 AM
RE: Biblical Prophecy
While I was in college, I took a theology class which focused on the three Abrahamic faiths. During the Christianity portion of the class, the instructor gave us a challenge to find the 3 passages in the old testament that prophesised the coming of Jesus. Since finding all 3 gave us +30% to our final grade, I tried very hard to find them. I didn't. In the end I cheated and I went to my father and asked him if he knew what they were. During his life, he was a catholic then a protestant then an atheist, so he studied the bible at length.
He showed me the prophesies. I am afraid I don't remember the exact wordings, but they were so obscure that they could have meant anything at that point. I was utterly baffled and I was sure he was wrong. But I submitted his answer as my response to the challenge. And I won!

My point is, if you're looking for a pattern, if you really want there to be a prophesy, you will read a prophesy into just about anything.

I also found it amusing that in a class full of Christians, it was the cheating heathen who found the answers Tongue

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