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01-01-2016, 03:34 PM
RE: Big Vitamin
(01-01-2016 03:21 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(01-01-2016 03:09 PM)John Silver Wrote:  Ahh okay....I see. but again not in anger or other....Over-Acting maybe!...

Your accusation that I had not done my due diligence and read your links was what provoked my response. No biggie.
Good we shall move forward thenThumbsup
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01-01-2016, 03:41 PM
RE: Big Vitamin
(01-01-2016 03:34 PM)John Silver Wrote:  
(01-01-2016 03:21 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Your accusation that I had not done my due diligence and read your links was what provoked my response. No biggie.
Good we shall move forward thenThumbsup

From what. Girly ain't got no issue with you. Pretty sure you'll be a fine addition to our community.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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01-01-2016, 03:45 PM
RE: Big Vitamin
(01-01-2016 03:41 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(01-01-2016 03:34 PM)John Silver Wrote:  Good we shall move forward thenThumbsup

From what. Girly ain't got no issue with you. Pretty sure you'll be a fine addition to our community.

Just an expression we use down here in S.C.....it means....."OH OKAY"
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01-01-2016, 03:45 PM
RE: Big Vitamin
(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  Whiskeydebate claims the proof burden is at my feet....Bull Shit.
It's not bullshit at all, you made a claim as to the positive benefits of colloidal silver ingestion and you were called upon to prove that claim. This is a claim that not only has not been proven but has been disproven through multiple clinical trials.
There is no evidence of any kind that the ingestion of colloidal silver has any noticeable beneficial health effect beyond placebo.

(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  As to MY personal claims...Sorry but I do not need a Lab result to verify that which I do and can see results.
Well maybe you should have some "lab results" because yes you clearly do. Without proper scientific analysis you have no way of knowing if the ingestion of Colloidal Silver is helping you, if it's psychosomatic, if it's the placebo effect, or if it's any of the other hundreds of possible factors.
"I ingest Colloidal Silver and I don't get sick so therefor I don't get sick because I ingest it." This is a textbook example of WHY we don't rely on personal anecdotes because you are engaged in correlation=causation thinking. If your anecdote was accurate then it would be demonstrable and repeatable under scientifically stringent investigation. And it's bloody well not, we see the opposite in fact.
People used to say the exact same thing about bloodletting, and leeches, and a host of other debunked medicinal practices. MILLIONS of people today swear up and down that homeopathic remedies improve their lives and make them feel better but we KNOW, we have proven time and time again, that homeopathy does not work as advertised and is just a placebo AT BEST.
You can thumb your damn nose at empirical science but if your anecdote was accurate it would be repeatable and demonstrable. You are operating under a misapprehension.

(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  Now "Burden of Proof" would indeed be mine, IF,..and I say that again,..IF, I had started a Thread about the "wondrous healing properties of CS"...
No. No, no, no, no, a million times no. That is not how it works. Burden of proof on a claim doesn't start when you make a thread for shit sake, it starts when you make a claim. You made the claim that the ingestion of Colloidal Silver caused you improved health. The second you made this claim you had a burden of proof, and a stronger one then most given that repeated investigation into this claim has come back with the same answer: that it's a false claim.
You have a burden of proof. You don't have to like it or think it's fair but you DO have it. Where and when you make the claim is an irrelevancy of the highest order.

(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  What I have done is state a regiment that I do and why I believe it to be of benefit, to me anyway. Not asking or requiring anybody else to even agree with it.
You made a truth claim, the fact that it's personal, that you are not requiring anyone to believe it or to agree with it in NO WAY absolves you of a burden of proof.

(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  WhiskeyBottoms, from reading various comments you have made in many posts here at TTA,you seem to believe you have an inherent authority to demand other people to tow the line as you believe in your mind it should be towed, Because YOU say so?....please get over yourself!
Haha, you're adorable son. Just like Christians trying to tell me what my own views and thoughts are. Typical Rolleyes. Well for clarification I don't believe I have any authority nor have I ever claimed to. As far as "toe the line" if you mean that I think that pseudo-scientific horseshit should be apposed; that the scientific method with it's innumerable checks and balances, it's demonstrable and testable results is superior to some jackasses wooistic disproven nonsense health practices then yes I think that's a line worth toeing. I believe, as a scientifically literate person, that the scientific method works, that demonstrable evidence is superior to baseless anecdotes, and that peer-reviewed scientific findings shouldn't be dismissed with "lol conspiracy" handwavey bullshit. It's the same standard I hold myself to.

As for me getting over myself...well.... maybe when I'm not getting told that by someone who thinks the entirety of the scientific community and it's repeated studies into Colloidal Silver ingestion is wrong and he is right for no other reason then he doesn't understand how the placebo effect works or that correlation is not fucking causation I'll take the criticism as anything worth considering.

(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  But to satisfy this irritating adolescent behavior of yours
The fact that you think demanding evidence be presented in support of claims that have been repeatedly scientifically proven to be false is "irritating and adolescent" tells me all I need to know about your respect, or lack thereof, for the scientific method. It's an insult I would take seriously if your last paragraph hadn't been you trying to pretend like you know my thoughts and beliefs better then I do like some asshole kid in grade 4.

(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  Nature-inspired novel drug design paradigm using nanosilver: efficacy on multi-drug-resistant clinical isolates of tuberculosis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20936471

Mode of antiviral action of silver nanoparticles against HIV-1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2818642/

Metal nanoparticles: The protective nanoshield against virus infection.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24754250

Interaction of silver nanoparticles with HIV-1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1190212/

Silver Nanoparticles as Potential Antiviral Agents with PDF link
http://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/16/10/8894

Silver nanoparticles inhibit vaccinia virus infection by preventing viral entry through a macropinocytosis-dependent mechanism.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23980510

The Effect of Size on Ag Nanosphere Toxicity in Macrophage Cell Models and Lung Epithelial Cell Lines Is Dependent on Particle Dissolution
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4013663/

Tannic Acid Modified Silver Nanoparticles Show Antiviral Activity in Herpes Simplex Virus Type 2 Infection
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4130517/

Silver nanoparticles are broad-spectrum bactericidal and virucidal compounds
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3199605/

Interaction of silver nanoparticles with Tacaribe virus
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2936366/

PVP-coated silver nanoparticles block the transmission of cell-free and cell-associated HIV-1 in human cervical culture
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2911397/

Nature-inspired Novel Drug Design Paradigm Using Nanosilver: Efficacy on Multi-Drug-Resistant Clinical Isolates of Tuberculosis
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007...010-9770-7

Inhibitory effects of silver nanoparticles against adenovirus type 3 in vitro
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...3413002747

Metal nanoparticles: The protective nanoshield against virus infection
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.31...ode=imby20

Silver Ions in the Treatment of Local Infections
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2365176/

Antibacterial Silver
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2364932/

Total Occlusive Ionic Silver-Containing Dressing vs Mupirocin Ointment Application vs Conventional Dressing in Elective Colorectal Surgery: Effect on Incisional Surgical Site Infection.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26206641

The use of BMP-2 coupled - Nanosilver-PLGA composite grafts to induce bone repair in grossly infected segmental defects.
http://europepmc.org/articles/PMC3202602
Not one single one of these links provides any support that the ingestion of Colloidal Silver has a positive effect on personal Health. Not a single goddamn one. Just because it's got the word "silver" in it does not mean it's interchangeable at your bloody whim.
Your attempt to wrap your disproven woo in with other proven medical practices and pretend they are interchangeable is dishonest and sad. Just because silver has some medical uses does not mean that Ingesting Colloidal Silver is one of them. Repeated tests has shown that it's not.

(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  BTW..what is your addy..W. bottom or W.debate?
Pretty sure you can read my name, should be easy to figure out.Hobo

(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  at any rate please do get your blood pressure checked out....you seem to be overly "high strung" young man
Haha, oh goody more Christian style tactics. Typical of woo peddlers. Don't confuse my intolerance for any kind of bullshit pseudoscience with genuine anger. Or even irritation for that matter. I'm not "high strung" I'm just scientifically literate. You should try it some time.Drinking Beverage

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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01-01-2016, 03:47 PM
RE: Big Vitamin
(01-01-2016 03:45 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  Whiskeydebate claims the proof burden is at my feet....Bull Shit.
It's not bullshit at all, you made a claim as to the positive benefits of colloidal silver ingestion and you were called upon to prove that claim. This is a claim that not only has not been proven but has been disproven through multiple clinical trials.
There is no evidence of any kind that the ingestion of colloidal silver has any noticeable beneficial health effect beyond placebo.

(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  As to MY personal claims...Sorry but I do not need a Lab result to verify that which I do and can see results.
Well maybe you should have some "lab results" because yes you clearly do. Without proper scientific analysis you have no way of knowing if the ingestion of Colloidal Silver is helping you, if it's psychosomatic, if it's the placebo effect, or if it's any of the other hundreds of possible factors.
"I ingest Colloidal Silver and I don't get sick so therefor I don't get sick because I ingest it." This is a textbook example of WHY we don't rely on personal anecdotes because you are engaged in correlation=causation thinking. If your anecdote was accurate then it would be demonstrable and repeatable under scientifically stringent investigation. And it's bloody well not, we see the opposite in fact.
People used to say the exact same thing about bloodletting, and leeches, and a host of other debunked medicinal practices. MILLIONS of people today swear up and down that homeopathic remedies improve their lives and make them feel better but we KNOW, we have proven time and time again, that homeopathy does not work as advertised and is just a placebo AT BEST.
You can thumb your damn nose at empirical science but if your anecdote was accurate it would be repeatable and demonstrable. You are operating under a misapprehension.

(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  Now "Burden of Proof" would indeed be mine, IF,..and I say that again,..IF, I had started a Thread about the "wondrous healing properties of CS"...
No. No, no, no, no, a million times no. That is not how it works. Burden of proof on a claim doesn't start when you make a thread for shit sake, it starts when you make a claim. You made the claim that the ingestion of Colloidal Silver caused you improved health. The second you made this claim you had a burden of proof, and a stronger one then most given that repeated investigation into this claim has come back with the same answer: that it's a false claim.
You have a burden of proof. You don't have to like it or think it's fair but you DO have it. Where and when you make the claim is an irrelevancy of the highest order.

(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  What I have done is state a regiment that I do and why I believe it to be of benefit, to me anyway. Not asking or requiring anybody else to even agree with it.
You made a truth claim, the fact that it's personal, that you are not requiring anyone to believe it or to agree with it in NO WAY absolves you of a burden of proof.

(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  WhiskeyBottoms, from reading various comments you have made in many posts here at TTA,you seem to believe you have an inherent authority to demand other people to tow the line as you believe in your mind it should be towed, Because YOU say so?....please get over yourself!
Haha, you're adorable son. Just like Christians trying to tell me what my own views and thoughts are. Typical Rolleyes. Well for clarification I don't believe I have any authority nor have I ever claimed to. As far as "toe the line" if you mean that I think that pseudo-scientific horseshit should be apposed; that the scientific method with it's innumerable checks and balances, it's demonstrable and testable results is superior to some jackasses wooistic disproven nonsense health practices then yes I think that's a line worth toeing. I believe, as a scientifically literate person, that the scientific method works, that demonstrable evidence is superior to baseless anecdotes, and that peer-reviewed scientific findings shouldn't be dismissed with "lol conspiracy" handwavey bullshit. It's the same standard I hold myself to.

As for me getting over myself...well.... maybe when I'm not getting told that by someone who thinks the entirety of the scientific community and it's repeated studies into Colloidal Silver ingestion is wrong and he is right for no other reason then he doesn't understand how the placebo effect works or that correlation is not fucking causation I'll take the criticism as anything worth considering.

(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  But to satisfy this irritating adolescent behavior of yours
The fact that you think demanding evidence be presented in support of claims that have been repeatedly scientifically proven to be false is "irritating and adolescent" tells me all I need to know about your respect, or lack thereof, for the scientific method. It's an insult I would take seriously if your last paragraph hadn't been you trying to pretend like you know my thoughts and beliefs better then I do like some asshole kid in grade 4.

(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  Nature-inspired novel drug design paradigm using nanosilver: efficacy on multi-drug-resistant clinical isolates of tuberculosis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20936471

Mode of antiviral action of silver nanoparticles against HIV-1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2818642/

Metal nanoparticles: The protective nanoshield against virus infection.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24754250

Interaction of silver nanoparticles with HIV-1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1190212/

Silver Nanoparticles as Potential Antiviral Agents with PDF link
http://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/16/10/8894

Silver nanoparticles inhibit vaccinia virus infection by preventing viral entry through a macropinocytosis-dependent mechanism.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23980510

The Effect of Size on Ag Nanosphere Toxicity in Macrophage Cell Models and Lung Epithelial Cell Lines Is Dependent on Particle Dissolution
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4013663/

Tannic Acid Modified Silver Nanoparticles Show Antiviral Activity in Herpes Simplex Virus Type 2 Infection
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4130517/

Silver nanoparticles are broad-spectrum bactericidal and virucidal compounds
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3199605/

Interaction of silver nanoparticles with Tacaribe virus
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2936366/

PVP-coated silver nanoparticles block the transmission of cell-free and cell-associated HIV-1 in human cervical culture
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2911397/

Nature-inspired Novel Drug Design Paradigm Using Nanosilver: Efficacy on Multi-Drug-Resistant Clinical Isolates of Tuberculosis
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007...010-9770-7

Inhibitory effects of silver nanoparticles against adenovirus type 3 in vitro
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...3413002747

Metal nanoparticles: The protective nanoshield against virus infection
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.31...ode=imby20

Silver Ions in the Treatment of Local Infections
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2365176/

Antibacterial Silver
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2364932/

Total Occlusive Ionic Silver-Containing Dressing vs Mupirocin Ointment Application vs Conventional Dressing in Elective Colorectal Surgery: Effect on Incisional Surgical Site Infection.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26206641

The use of BMP-2 coupled - Nanosilver-PLGA composite grafts to induce bone repair in grossly infected segmental defects.
http://europepmc.org/articles/PMC3202602
Not one single one of these links provides any support that the ingestion of Colloidal Silver has a positive effect on personal Health. Not a single goddamn one. Just because it's got the word "silver" in it does not mean it's interchangeable at your bloody whim.
Your attempt to wrap your disproven woo in with other proven medical practices and pretend they are interchangeable is dishonest and sad. Just because silver has some medical uses does not mean that Ingesting Colloidal Silver is one of them. Repeated tests has shown that it's not.

(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  BTW..what is your addy..W. bottom or W.debate?
Pretty sure you can read my name, should be easy to figure out.Hobo

(01-01-2016 11:45 AM)John Silver Wrote:  at any rate please do get your blood pressure checked out....you seem to be overly "high strung" young man
Haha, oh goody more Christian style tactics. Typical of woo peddlers. Don't confuse my intolerance for any kind of bullshit pseudoscience with genuine anger. Or even irritation for that matter. I'm not "high strung" I'm just scientifically literate. You should try it some time.Drinking Beverage
Wow bro...Thought we have moved on here?not christian tactics......just fucking with you....?
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01-01-2016, 03:49 PM
RE: Big Vitamin
(01-01-2016 01:04 PM)John Silver Wrote:  I was asked to provide evidence...I have .. I'm not going to argue the evidence with you either for or against it's validity I provided my burden of proof.....If that is not good enough for you rascals.. t hen fuck off...
Case closed!!
You were asked to provide evidence that the ingestion of Colloidal Silver has a positive effect on health or that it even CAN have a positive effect on health.

You have ENTIRELY failed to do that. Providing a dozen links to studies that don't talk about the ingestion of Colloidal Silver IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM does not support your case that it's a positive. You have not met your burden of proof by linking to entirely unrelated studies.

So no providing unrelated links with not relation to the claim in question is NOT good enough.

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01-01-2016, 03:56 PM
RE: Big Vitamin
(01-01-2016 03:49 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(01-01-2016 01:04 PM)John Silver Wrote:  I was asked to provide evidence...I have .. I'm not going to argue the evidence with you either for or against it's validity I provided my burden of proof.....If that is not good enough for you rascals.. t hen fuck off...
Case closed!!
You were asked to provide evidence that the ingestion of Colloidal Silver has a positive effect on health or that it even CAN have a positive effect on health.

You have ENTIRELY failed to do that. Providing a dozen links to studies that don't talk about the ingestion of Colloidal Silver IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM does not support your case that it's a positive. You have not met your burden of proof by linking to entirely unrelated studies.

So no providing unrelated links with not relation to the claim in question is NOT good enough.
Then so be it Whiskey...if you don't believe the woo then don't...the only thing I can use as tried and true ammo here is what my last post stated back on page 5..

Also If I had known you were such a touchy fellow I would have answered you in another way...but dayum man c'mon on here...again go back and read my last post on pg. 5....it gives all the proof or non proof of my claim I can give...what else do you want....you have stated your case of the ass with me...and you appear to have won your battle now what???? Do we keep hashing this?
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01-01-2016, 04:01 PM
RE: Big Vitamin
(01-01-2016 02:03 PM)John Silver Wrote:  When I say I'm done I mean I'm done with providing any evidence...
You haven't even started.

(01-01-2016 02:03 PM)John Silver Wrote:  Chas the truth is if a person believes in it they will use....if they don't,..then they won't. Evidence be damned.
And that has exactly dick all to do with the question on whether it actually works or not. Evidence WORKS, again you can thumb your nose at it all you like, but it's valuable and it works a whole lot better than personal anecdotes.

(01-01-2016 02:03 PM)John Silver Wrote:  Now not all CS usage is internal.
Right but whats in contention is the ingestion of Colloidal Silver as a health benefit. Listing a bunch of uses that it may be useful for that aren't ingestion doesn't magically make ingesting it useful too.

(01-01-2016 02:03 PM)John Silver Wrote:  It probably is better as an external treatment than internal.
Agreed given that external use, in certain areas of medicine, has some validity in science. Ingestion does not in anyway have a basis in science and the claim has been proven false repeatedly.

(01-01-2016 02:03 PM)John Silver Wrote:  What I do make and consume...is a very weak solution 20ppm or less and have found it to work on a couple symptoms.
Again demonstrate that this is accurate. Provide any peer-reviewed science to back up this claim and show that it's not just the placebo effect or you once again failing to understand that correlation is not causation. I ask because, again, every single time it's been properly tested it's come back negative.

(01-01-2016 02:03 PM)John Silver Wrote:  And I do insist that my comments were not meant to be mean spirit or hateful to any of you....No
That's a load of bullshit. half of what you wrote in response to my requests for evidence were purely personal attacks that had NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.
[/quote]

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01-01-2016, 04:05 PM
RE: Big Vitamin
you have stated your case of the ass with me...and you appear to have won your battle now what???? Do we keep hashing this?
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01-01-2016, 04:07 PM
RE: Big Vitamin
(01-01-2016 03:31 PM)John Silver Wrote:  You see there is no way I can give any scientific proof for these...just that I do this and it seems to work out...

Yes there is, because of the ingestion were the reason then it would show up in cynical trials. It would be repeatable, and it's not. You can give personal anecdotes until you are blue in the face but if your results are not repeatable in ANY WAY at all then they are probably wrong. You are probably operating under a misapprehension.

Again millions of people make the exact same argument about homeopathic "medicine" and we KNOW they are wrong. Every time Colloidal Silver ingestion is investigated in a controlled and stringent manner we get the same results: that it does not work.
Facts beat personal anecdotes.

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