Poll: How will this ultimately work out?
The Fed will be able to continue buying up the government's with newly printed money indefinitely.
The Fed will have to stop at some point, but the US will be able to handle the interest payments.
It will lead to either a currency collapse if the Fed keeps printing money like this, or a default if they don't.
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Big surprise. The Republicans caved in.
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18-10-2013, 07:38 PM
RE: Big surprise. The Republicans caved in.
(18-10-2013 07:13 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 07:05 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Roads and bridges and railways and wind farms and nuclear power plants and upgrading the grid and teachers and cops and firemen and other infrastructure sounds like both a stimulus and an investment to me DarkMeat. Tongue

I have never understood how libertarians overlook all those things when discussing the government.

We live in the People's Republic of Maryland where taking care of our own ain't up for debate, it's just a given. ... Somehow we are amongst the best at taking care of our own while still having the highest income per capita of any State. Taking care of your own don't hurt your bottom line, it helps it. So suck terrapin balls teaturds.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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18-10-2013, 07:39 PM
RE: Big surprise. The Republicans caved in.
(18-10-2013 07:38 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 07:13 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I have never understood how libertarians overlook all those things when discussing the government.

We live in the People's Republic of Maryland where taking care of our own ain't up for debate, it's just a given. ... Somehow we are amongst the best at taking care of our own while still having the highest income per capita. Taking care of your own don't hurt your bottom line, it helps it. So suck terrapin balls teaturds.

Socialism it works Thumbsup

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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18-10-2013, 07:43 PM
RE: Big surprise. The Republicans caved in.
Neither of you countered what I said. Also, that isn't really socialism. That's weak federal government and strong state government.

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18-10-2013, 07:47 PM
RE: Big surprise. The Republicans caved in.
(18-10-2013 07:32 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Because that stuff is largely paid for by state and local governments. Federal government taxes mostly go towards buying debt (yeah, I said it), administration, military, etc. Roads, bridges and the like are mostly paid for by state income taxes, state gasoline taxes, etc.

The late great Senator from West Virginia Robert Byrd made West Virginia's highways among the best in the country and he didn't do it with local taxes, he couldn't have. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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18-10-2013, 07:48 PM
RE: Big surprise. The Republicans caved in.
(18-10-2013 09:39 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(17-10-2013 10:04 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Why should "giving up" matter?
If you don't have a job, you're unemployed, irrespective of if you're actively looking for a job or not.

The US unemployment numbers ONLY include people actively looking for a job by spending their time in the unemployment office and going to interviews, etc. Once they give up, they are no longer considered unemployed and the official unemployment number goes down.

Fuck that's some bullshit. (not your fault I know, I'm just saying)
Especially if they're still on welfare. If they weren't on welfare and they didn't work and weren't looking then yeah sure I could understand that.

(18-10-2013 12:06 PM)frankksj Wrote:  @earmuffs,

I think you're over-complicating it. If you look at a modern monetary system it seems so complex. But if you study the history, starting before there even was money, and follow the evolutionary progress, it becomes very clear why things work the way they do. It's pretty easy to get your head around. I know it's long, but I did this here: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...eal?page=7

Quote:I get what you're saying but I disagree. Everything, including Gold, is only worth the price someone will pay for it. Oil was "discovered" by the ancient Egyptians but they had absolutely no use for it and so it considered a waste product and completely worthless.

We don't disagree at all. There are some things that are universally considered valuable because they have properties humans need, like food and water which nourishes human cells, steel because it can make weapons, and gold because it's the best medium of exchange the world has since it's rare (never more than a few kg per person), which makes it convenient to divide between the populace, it's hard to find, so the money supply grows only 1-3%/year normally, it's distributed in tiny flakes, rather than large chunks, so the money supply grows small amounts across the population, and it's an element, so 1 oz of it always be the same as another oz, it can easily be melted and shaped, and at room temperature it has a unique color and texture that doesn't exist anywhere else. If it's diluted, or a 'fake gold', it's easy to tell because when you bite it your teeth won't leave an impression. Naturally, it's not perfect, and when they found a ton of gold in the New World, it was devastating to the economy for the exact same reason it is when the Fed prints tons of new money. But, I'll bet that 99.9% of the places & times in human history, food, water, and gold will have inherent value because they all have properties humans need. However, I'm not a gold bug, nor am I advocating returning to a gold standard. I'd rather use a more modern system, like bitcoin. So, I'm not advocating FOR gold, rather I'm AGAINST having one authority (the Fed) have the ability to confiscate as much wealth from as they want silently, without our knowing, by hitting the print button. IF they want to take half of our wealth, I want it to be done transparently, through taxation, where we know what is being taken, and who it's being taken from, and can ensure the burden is spread evenly. Politicians, of course, LOVE a fiat currency because, when they want to spend to boatloads of money, they don't need to deal with pesky voter approval—they just tell the Fed to hit 'print', and the voters do end up paying, but they don't even realize it, because it happens slowly and gradually in the form of increased prices.

Quote:And so Fed printed money represents everything in a sense. It's sort of hard to explain. Say inflation goes up and for that same hour's work I get $12. Same amount of work, different price. And so all the money printed by the Fed Reserve that increased inflation by 20%, $2 of that money is represented by my work. Fuck it's really hard to explain. It doesn't represent nothing though.

It's simpler if you start small. Imagine the world consists of a village with 100 people. They once discovered 1,000 shells, and assumed these were the only shells in the world, so they agreed to use them as money, a medium of exchange, with each person on average having 10 shells, and each shell representing a day's labor. But, unbeknownst to everybody, one guy in the village, Fred, discovered a hidden cache of 10,000 shells, which he's hiding in his house. What effect does this have on the village? It depends on what Fred does with those shells. If he does nothing and they just sit in the house, it has no effect. This is the same as when the Fed prints money and gives it to the big banks, and the banks just sit on it and don't loan it out. We don't perceive any real effect. But what if Fred has a fetish for bananas and buys up all the bananas? The price of bananas will soar right away. Over time, as Fred obtains all the villages bananas, the price of other fruits may rise. So people may switch to eating more grains, bringing the price of non-banana fruits back down. But, gradually, as those new 10,000 shells start circulating and being used to buy all sorts of things, eventually all prices will go up, and people will start demanding higher sums for their labor, maybe 2 shells/day, so they can feed their families. Or, Fred could alternatively offer loans to all the villagers, which would drive down interest rates. Which is what the Fed has done with house loans.

The bottom line is that when someone has the ability to make more money, be it Fred or the Fed, he gets a lot wealthier. But it's not new wealth, it's just taking wealth from someone else. And it's hard to track who is paying what. Classic liberals and Austrian economists have always said that the poor and the middle class suffer the most. And history has proven their predictions to be accurate. Here's the US gini-coefficient (inquality): http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/GiniLong2004.jpg It got better while the US was on a gold standard (ie the government paid the bills only with taxes and couldn't print money), and it reversed course precisely when Nixon ended gold convertibility. Since then, whether taxes are high or low, whether the US is run by liberals or conservatives, the poor and middle class have been consistently wiped out, exactly like the Austrians predicted. If you think there's 2 sides to this story, I can't find it. The opposition, the Keynesians, do not dispute this--they just ignore it, truncate the gini charts at 1980, and blame Reagan. Whenever you point out that the change happened during the Nixon shock, they refuse to discuss the matter further.


Mmhmm. You have no argument from me that printing money is a bad thing.
I was just basically saying that printing money causes inflation. You explained it a lot better than I did.

(18-10-2013 07:05 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 04:32 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I do not understand those of you how think growing government spending is somehow an economy stimulus. There is such a thing as good debt, an investment, but that is not what most of you are describing.

Roads and bridges and railways and wind farms and nuclear power plants and upgrading the grid and teachers and cops and firemen and other infrastructure sounds like both a stimulus and an investment to me DarkMeat. Tongue

Of course they do, you're only looking at the short term.

If the government goes tits up who's left to build roads than, or maintain them?
I somehow doubt someone's gonna build a road for free.

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18-10-2013, 07:54 PM
RE: Big surprise. The Republicans caved in.
(18-10-2013 07:47 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 07:32 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Because that stuff is largely paid for by state and local governments. Federal government taxes mostly go towards buying debt (yeah, I said it), administration, military, etc. Roads, bridges and the like are mostly paid for by state income taxes, state gasoline taxes, etc.

The late great Senator from West Virginia Robert Byrd made West Virginia's highways among the best in the country and he didn't do it with local taxes, he couldn't have. Tongue

That's why I said largely done.

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18-10-2013, 07:56 PM
RE: Big surprise. The Republicans caved in.
(18-10-2013 07:43 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Neither of you countered what I said. Also, that isn't really socialism. That's weak federal government and strong state government.

The People's Republic of Maryland hereby asserts its Constitutional Right to be as Socialist as we fucking want. It's working well for us. Come back when your paystub's bigger than ours. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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18-10-2013, 07:56 PM
RE: Big surprise. The Republicans caved in.
(18-10-2013 07:48 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Of course they do, you're only looking at the short term.

If the government goes tits up who's left to build roads than, or maintain them?
I somehow doubt someone's gonna build a road for free.

Who are you talking to, and what do you think was said? If it was at me I said it is largely done by state and local government. State governments are charged with maintaining their roads. No one is doing anything for free.

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18-10-2013, 07:57 PM
RE: Big surprise. The Republicans caved in.
(18-10-2013 07:56 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 07:43 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Neither of you countered what I said. Also, that isn't really socialism. That's weak federal government and strong state government.

The People's Republic of Maryland hereby asserts its Constitutional Right to be as Socialist as we fucking want. It's working well for us. Come back when your paystub's bigger than ours. Tongue

Again, that doesn't go against my wishes. I want Maryland to be as socialist as it wants. I just don't wanna live there or pay for it.

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18-10-2013, 07:58 PM
RE: Big surprise. The Republicans caved in.
(18-10-2013 07:54 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 07:47 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  The late great Senator from West Virginia Robert Byrd made West Virginia's highways among the best in the country and he didn't do it with local taxes, he couldn't have. Tongue

That's why I said largely done.

Actually it's mostly done by local administrations with federal money. Like most government it is not that cut and dry which is why the state/federal argument is false.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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