Biodiesel
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
18-06-2012, 01:47 AM
RE: Biodiesel
There are a few reasons why biodiesel is being pushed back. One of them is because petrol engines use more fuel and are the leading types of cars that manufacturers are making and selling. The oil companies prefer petrol, because it is more expensive, the petrol cars use more of it, when compared to diesel engines. We all know that big oil companies can influence the way car industry will work and if you do not believe that, though luck, nothing I can do now to persuade you, but yeah, lobbying is something that every big player is doing in the business world.

We already had some conversations about this or similar subjects.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...l-monopoly

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...lity-cloak

[Image: a6505fe8.jpg]
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-06-2012, 03:23 AM
RE: Biodiesel
(18-06-2012 12:36 AM)HDT Wrote:  
(17-06-2012 08:23 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  Preparing used oil for internal combustion requires a bit of skill and chemical know how, but the quality of the fuel can exceed that of conventional sources.
As for growing plants for fuel it isn't crazy. You're using the plants as solar panels to directly collect solar energy, but the nature of the land use emphases a point that already exists without biofuel: That there is competition for land between the production of food and of energy.
Can't we use other sources of biofuels other than ethanol, which if I'm not mistaken, takes up the majority of our farm land; thus solving the land competition dilemma? The more I learn about biodiesels, the less I understand why there isn't a bigger push for funding and support into this. That's why I come to places like this and people seem to just reinforce my understanding that this is an undervalued technology.
As long as it's cheaper to pump up crude, bio-diesel will never catch on.
Give it some more time. The first thing that needs to happen is that investors can make money from it, then it will catch on.

btw, I believe 10 or 20% of the diesel you poor in your car, is already bio-diesel. Mostly its a mixture of both products. It's mineral diesel diluted with bio diesel.


Again, you need to step away from the silver bullet concept, technological applications will need to have their own study on how you can power it efficiently. solutions might be as high-tech as buffered solar panels to as low-tech as wound up cellphones.
In every study, the first question will be whether it pays the bills. As well for the consumer as for the devoloper.

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-06-2012, 05:45 AM
RE: Biodiesel
(18-06-2012 12:36 AM)HDT Wrote:  
(17-06-2012 08:23 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  Preparing used oil for internal combustion requires a bit of skill and chemical know how, but the quality of the fuel can exceed that of conventional sources.
As for growing plants for fuel it isn't crazy. You're using the plants as solar panels to directly collect solar energy, but the nature of the land use emphases a point that already exists without biofuel: That there is competition for land between the production of food and of energy.
Can't we use other sources of biofuels other than ethanol, which if I'm not mistaken, takes up the majority of our farm land; thus solving the land competition dilemma? The more I learn about biodiesels, the less I understand why there isn't a bigger push for funding and support into this. That's why I come to places like this and people seem to just reinforce my understanding that this is an undervalued technology.
That seems a bit confused. Ethanol is the fuel; it is made largely from corn. If you don't grow a crop to be turned into fuel, where do you get the 'bio' to make the 'diesel'?

Also, ethanol isn't biodiesel; it is a biofuel. Biodiesel is composed of larger molecules.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-06-2012, 09:27 AM
RE: Biodiesel
Gotta say, my knowledge on alternative energy (as in power plants) is pretty good. But alternative fuel is a little out of my reach.

However, I'm sure shit keeps popping up about cars that run on water. The engine separates the water into hydrogen and oxygen burns one and throws out the other, or burns both, I dunno, physic student not chemistry.

As for ethanol, you'll just end up with the African problem where farmers can grow tabaco for cash or food to eat. Could force up food prices, so yeah you'd get cheaper gas but you'd have higher food prices. A lot of shit uses things like corn syrup/corn starch/corn whatever.

And then there's quantity. How much elegy is required to power America? is the question you should be answering.
It likely will just be exactly like LPG or that other gas one that use to be around before I was born. You introduce it, but because everyone has a gas car nothing changes. And because nobody buys LPG there isn't enough demand, car companies never make LPG cars and hence LPG remains in the corner with a tiny tiny percentage of the population.

For a working solution it needs to work in a petrol combustion engine. It needs to be easy to mass produce and it has to be cheap.
You need to likely start with something that can dilute petrol as it is, something cheap. Like ethanol. Then continue diluting petrol over a long time until only that product remains.

Things like goods transport can already be done very cleanly. Electric. Trains that is. If rail was bigger and more efficient and relied upon much much more you can ship large amounts of goods so much more efficiently then trucks. Add clean renewable power like solar, wind or geothermal and you're good to go.

[Image: 3cdac7eec8f6b059070d9df56f50a7ae.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-06-2012, 10:57 AM
RE: Biodiesel
Ethanol isn't a viable option for a few reasons. 1) It currently takes >1 gallon of petrol to produce 1 gallon of ethanol (thanks to pesticides, manufacturing consumption, plastics used in the equipment for refining, etc) 2) Ethanol isn't very efficient in MPG speak 3) Ethanol burns differently than gasoline and is harsher on engines, meaning reduced engine life.

I don't know too terribly much about bio-diesel, but there was a BBC documentary someone linked on a thread here somewhere called "Playing God" and it touched on new methods for bio-diesel production using yeast. The issues I am aware of have already been mentioned 1) Pushback from oil companies and 2) Land use. I would add one additional concern 3) Water consumption. If new areas begin to be farmed for use a food source for the bio-diesel, these new farms will require water, and water is quickly becoming a limiting resource (especially in arid areas like the SW US or basically anywhere in Africa).

Evolve
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-06-2012, 11:09 AM
RE: Biodiesel
(18-06-2012 10:57 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  2) Land use. I would add one additional concern 3) Water consumption. If new areas begin to be farmed for use a food source for the bio-diesel, these new farms will require water, and water is quickly becoming a limiting resource (especially in arid areas like the SW US or basically anywhere in Africa).
As i said before.
No substance will be the wonderpotion.
The first thing needed in any alternative fuel scenario will be moderation of consumption.

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-06-2012, 11:58 AM
RE: Biodiesel
Moderation of consumption as long as we get our population under control and not increasing at an exponential rate. We have to deal with the inevitable increases in consumption that will continue as areas like China begin to demand more, more, more.

Evolve
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-06-2012, 04:42 PM
RE: Biodiesel
I'm extremely intrigued by this.

"A man who dares waste an hour of his life has not discovered the value of life." - Charles Darwin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-06-2012, 10:15 PM
RE: Biodiesel
(18-06-2012 11:09 AM)Observer Wrote:  
(18-06-2012 10:57 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  2) Land use. I would add one additional concern 3) Water consumption. If new areas begin to be farmed for use a food source for the bio-diesel, these new farms will require water, and water is quickly becoming a limiting resource (especially in arid areas like the SW US or basically anywhere in Africa).
As i said before.
No substance will be the wonderpotion.
The first thing needed in any alternative fuel scenario will be moderation of consumption.
alternative fuel?
There would be no problems if current fuel was moderated.

I mean of course demand is going to be through the roof when you have like 2 cars for every 1 person (I don't know the actual numbers but you get the idea).
Just sit on an overbridge during morning or afternoon commute on any motorway and I guarantee all the cars that drive past will have 1 person. The whole system could easily work on petrol just fine, just mass transport needs to be a thousands times more efficient and readily available.
Nothing wrong with people owning cars, BUT if you take a bus to get into the CBD or town or where ever, then you only need the car occasionally. Families could have 1 car rather then 2, 3 or 4.
And like I say, if that mass transport then runs on electricity (trains most likely here, though buses are doable) you can have clean renewable power plants feeding the electrical grid and suddenly cost, pollution, congestion (which means you would actually get to work faster) all decrease and technological growth into renewable energy increase.

Solar for example is having some major breakthroughs. Liquid that can stay hot enough that the plant can run all through the night will completely eliminate solar energies biggest flaw (no sun, no power).

Wholely shit! Just looked out the window, it is PISSING!!! down. Never seen it rain so god damn hard, Jesus fucking Christ look at it!!


My point is that the solution is possibly not a new source of fuel but rather just an adjustment into the way we currently do things with what we currently have.

- It's doable today
- Most problem free option
- overall better for everyone (except oil companies but who really gives a fuck about them)

- Don't need to worry about sacrificing land and all the worries of mass corn production

What is stopping us is that mentality people have. That mentality that they can't live without the independence of their vehicle. BUT, that is why I say people should still have a car, they should just use it less. I mean please explain to me the freedom this gives you?
[Image: A183-00084_Thailand_Bangkok_rush_hour_tr...estion.jpg]

And then after that you have to find a car park.
Nobody drives anywhere for lunch because you lose your car park and will be late trying to find another (waste your whole lunch break driving around), so everyone walks everywhere for lunch.
It's not freedom and if it was replaced with a train or bus then it would make no difference in your life except maybe because the roads are more clear you may just get an extra half an hour sleep in.

It is the most simple, problem free, cost effective, world changing for the better option. And it is something we could do today.

[Image: 3cdac7eec8f6b059070d9df56f50a7ae.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-06-2012, 11:00 AM
RE: Biodiesel
Hydrogen cells coupled with electric motors sounds pretty awesome to me Smile There was an episode of Top Gear (UK of course) where they showed Honda's new one. It looked pretty slick and worked well, now all we need is the infrastructure to support them.

That is the crux in 2 ways. Designing and implementing a new infrastructure. Places like the US certainly need a new one to replace the scores of coal plants, but actually building them takes a good deal of $$. So doing it means making sure it is done right. I'm disagreeing with that, but at the present time, it does not appear viable to invest that kind of $$ into it when our current infrastructure is still doing the job just fine, albeit a bit dirty.

As for public transport, that simply won't work for the majority of the US. It works in big cities, but that is about it. The US really is too large for our current system to support public transport. What we need is a more reliable and cleaner fuel source for cars, that is also abundant enough to be stored at service stations.

As has been said before, there is no magic bullet

Evolve
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: