Biology Nobelist:: Natural selection will destroy us
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03-03-2011, 01:08 PM
 
RE: Biology Nobelist:: Natural selection will destroy us
(03-03-2011 12:20 PM)Cdf50 Wrote:  It IS up to us, considering we're the one putting it in danger in the first place. The planet was here long before us, and if the issues it was experiencing now were the same as the ones it's always faced, then it wouldn't be our responsibility.
We're putting ourselves in danger with the pollution, the desecration of natural resources, etc...And certainly we do possess the ability to nuke Earth, if not into oblivion, at least into a global nuclear winter that will destroy all life on the planet that will be radically altered after.
However, given humans calculate their existence in terms of greater than, as in we're the alleged superior race, top of the food chain, and as such all things are within our dominion, what is truly greater than that ego-centrism is earth herself. We're parasites here. If we destroy ourselves, sans a nuclear detonation event that turns Gaia into more mass for the asteroid belt, planet home will survive. She'll reform, regenerate, adapt and overcome we that tiny arrogant speck that thought we were all that and more. That imagined everything here owed us a living, while failing to realize one simple fact in basic biology alive and despite all the technology that surrounds us; you don't shit where you eat and expect to live long or well.

For it to be up to us, all of us would have to join as one cohesive front dedicated to changing all that we've done to put this environment at risk in the first place.
When big business has a vested interest in capital, rather than environmental, it's simply not going to happen. Hell, we aren't able to gather 50 people in a room so as to discuss one subject relating to change in our individual and consequentially collective behavior so as to come to a consensus.
It's folly, yet the stuff for big "green" marketing to give it a try, to imagine a planet population numbering nearly 7 billion stands a chance in greater number of accomplishing the same as that what can't be arrived at at the lesser population engaged in discourse.

If you want to save the world, start at your own two feet. Move forward in your thinking, your consumerism, your recycling, your consumption of natural and man made products. Don't buy the hype, thinking you're doing a good turn just because the Ad campaigns tell you so.
Don't buy Hybrid cars, if you really really don't want to impact the environment more than fossil fueled vehicles do now. Instead, maintain your vehicle mechanically, so that the wear and tear of neglect doesn't cause pollution as an after effect.
Don't be led to believe buying CFL bulbs is part of the "green energy" campaign. Because the only green energy that purchase contributes to is capital profits for lighting that is environmentally hazardous because the bulbs contain mercury! And can not be tossed away in the garbage like traditional bulbs, because it's considered a hazardous waste product.

Thinking I can save the world is ridiculous. I'm outnumbered!
And so are you.
The personal is political. Take care of your own, because you're not responsible for everyone else. Planet home was here the day you were born and for millions of years before our first ancestor took a breath, and she'll outlive you and everyone on this forum.
When it get's bad enough, she'll save herself.
And if the human race is a casualty after the fact it will come as no surprise. The record of extinct life to date is proof enough that when it comes to truly ruling at the top of the food chain, it ain't us. We're just guests here.

And Mother Earth has always known that.
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03-03-2011, 04:13 PM
 
RE: Biology Nobelist:: Natural selection will destroy us
You just stated why we couldn't save the earth, not why it isn't our responsibility. You make a poopy in your pants, it's your obligation to clean it up. If you've tied yourself up with awesome bondage capabilities and have no way of cleaning yourself, that doesn't change the fact that it's all your fault, therefor your responsibility to clean up.

And that type of thinking seems rather hypocritical to me. You point at humanity's uselessness in the face of such a massive issue and how we can't get together to solve a goal such as environmental preservation and repair; but if everybody felt the way you did, we'd really be screwed.

Quote:When it get's bad enough, she'll save herself.
And if the human race is a casualty after the fact it will come as no surprise. The record of extinct life to date is proof enough that when it comes to truly ruling at the top of the food chain, it ain't us. We're just guests here.
That's a horrible way to look at it. Sure with global warming, not every species will die and neither will the earth, but even so, it'll result in the extinction of far more than just the human race. thousands of species will be wiped off the planet forever. It would take the biosphere millions upon millions of years to return to a fraction of the diversity it has today.

And exactly, we're just guests here. Guests don't go into somebody's house and break everything they see, knowing that the house owner will kill them eventually and then probably fix the place up eventually.
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03-03-2011, 06:01 PM
 
RE: Biology Nobelist:: Natural selection will destroy us
(03-03-2011 04:13 PM)Cdf50 Wrote:  You just stated why we couldn't save the earth, not why it isn't our responsibility. You make a poopy in your pants, it's your obligation to clean it up. If you've tied yourself up with awesome bondage capabilities and have no way of cleaning yourself, that doesn't change the fact that it's all your fault, therefor your responsibility to clean up.
Perhaps you've missed it, in fact it's not a matter of perhaps at all but is evident.
Contrary to your erroneous projection regarding my lack of obligation in the matter I did say: (sic)"...
If you want to save the world, start at your own two feet." (sic)"...Take care of your own, because you're not responsible for everyone else."

What you appear to be saying, and I realize I may be projecting in my own right, is that everyone needs to get on the same page. Everyone needs to see the present global situation as just so and do something to actively reverse the cause and effect we're all and each one uniquely responsible for creating so as to arrive at this seeming critical mass.

However, that's no different than any zealot monocerebral ideology that espouses there's only one way to see things and thus one way to participate in that which is seen.
If indeed it was so plainly obvious to everyone that we can not foul our environment and expect to survive ourselves much less it, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

We've arrived at this present moment due to our own responsibilities as a race of bipedal arrogance drunk with delusions of grandeur, to be satisfied and appeased at any cost. Now, we're paying the tax for that. We're watching as we have to bottle water, or fluoridate that what emanates from the tap because there's something like less than 1% of natural sweet water available on the planet.

We're breathing putrid air because the whole planet's atmosphere is toxic to some degree, while Earth's filtration system/organic lungs are being clear cut in terms of acres every day, because rain forests aren't something to respect or gaze at with awe.

Instead they're worthy only of harvest for the hardwoods present therein, since we hominids can never have enough butcher block tables, or foot stools. And thank goodness for all that space afforded after those ancient tree's are ripped from the ground, because otherwise McDonald's wouldn't have a chance to corral future Big Macs at less buck on the hoof per acre.
Do you eat at McDonald's?
How about shopping at Pier 1 Imports?
You are responsible for your part in this world. Neither you nor I are responsible for the whole world's present predicament. And amazingly enough to some, it's not a predicament at all. It's profit, expansionism, the way of the world. It's perception that is reality and each one of us see's things differently. To see things from your point of view as something we all have to fix, if you deem it needs fixing, is going to let you to feel a great deal of stress and disappointment all your days because it is natural we won't all comply or agree with your point of view.

That's why I said, and I did so from experience in thinking I could be but one of many that would change the world, but that was long ago when I was naive, arrogant and clueless as to the scope of my presumed undertaking, you can't hope to save the whole world. All you are responsible for is saving yourself and your space within it.
Earth herself is capable of saving herself. Think about it. Worst case scenario, as many have arrived at this already so it's not a worst case in future at all but a present state, if we foul our air so much we can not breathe. If the sun becomes so hot we're green housed like ferns, if our waters are so toxic with ocean dumping and other violations that we can not fish, swim or drink what is drawn and purified for use, we're dead. While those elements alive as Earth's resources slowly transformed by our depraved indifference cause Earth to evolve herself to adapt and conform, altering the environment to give life one more chance. Or not, as the extinction tables would indicate.
And that's why, if we kill ourselves by our own hand as a global species, it's our collective fault. If that does happen, it's because we contaminated our terrestrial environment and Earth showed us through adapting to that, what that level of ignorance costs us.
And while it took a village to destroy all of us, though among the many there were a great many who fought to change things so we wouldn't murder ourselves through contamination of the environment that sustained us, the fact of nature is one person can only work their best to do what they can for themselves and as such effect the world through their part. One can not save nor change, the many. 1 vs. 6+ billion. Not even Vegas would take those odds.





Quote:And that type of thinking seems rather hypocritical to me. You point at humanity's uselessness in the face of such a massive issue and how we can't get together to solve a goal such as environmental preservation and repair; but if everybody felt the way you did, we'd really be screwed.
That we're even having cause to address this matter, given the issues of concern presented regarding the need to save the Earth from ourselves, would lend evidence we are already screwed. Now it's a matter of sloganizing, legislating and actively pursuing salvation from our own poor choices that have caused us to arrive at this present predicament.



Quote:When it get's bad enough, she'll save herself.
And if the human race is a casualty after the fact it will come as no surprise. The record of extinct life to date is proof enough that when it comes to truly ruling at the top of the food chain, it ain't us. We're just guests here.
(End Gassy Kitten quote) That's a horrible way to look at it. Sure with global warming, not every species will die and neither will the earth, but even so, it'll result in the extinction of far more than just the human race. thousands of species will be wiped off the planet forever. It would take the biosphere millions upon millions of years to return to a fraction of the diversity it has today.
As has been happening for millions of years. Isn't evolution wonderful? Smile

Quote:And exactly, we're just guests here. Guests don't go into somebody's house and break everything they see, knowing that the house owner will kill them eventually and then probably fix the place up eventually.
Probably?Undecided Modern humans have been guests here for roughly 35 thousand years, give or take according to some studies. The Anthropologist Richard Leakey's findings in 1967 led to his arriving at the conclusion the fossil skeletal remains he discovered put the earliest of our kind at roughly 130 thousand years ago. While the later 20th century discoveries in parts of Ethiopia have provided a later frame of 195 thousand years for that what appears as the first humans on Earth.

Neanderthals (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) no longer walk the planet. Nor do Crô-Magnon (Homo sapiens sapiens), Australopithecus afarensis, or Homo habilis. Earth/environment finally killed them and then did definitely fix the place up and from that evolution Homo sapiens are able to challenge her to do it all over again. It's a cyclical relationship, you see.
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03-03-2011, 06:42 PM
 
RE: Biology Nobelist:: Natural selection will destroy us
(03-03-2011 06:01 PM)GassyKitten Wrote:  
(03-03-2011 04:13 PM)Cdf50 Wrote:  You just stated why we couldn't save the earth, not why it isn't our responsibility. You make a poopy in your pants, it's your obligation to clean it up. If you've tied yourself up with awesome bondage capabilities and have no way of cleaning yourself, that doesn't change the fact that it's all your fault, therefor your responsibility to clean up.
Perhaps you've missed it, in fact it's not a matter of perhaps at all but is evident.
Contrary to your erroneous projection regarding my lack of obligation in the matter I did say: (sic)"...
If you want to save the world, start at your own two feet." (sic)"...Take care of your own, because you're not responsible for everyone else."
Fair enough, that'll teach me to not skim posts on this site.

Quote:What you appear to be saying, and I realize I may be projecting in my own right, is that everyone needs to get on the same page. Everyone needs to see the present global situation as just so and do something to actively reverse the cause and effect we're all and each one uniquely responsible for creating so as to arrive at this seeming critical mass.

However, that's no different than any zealot monocerebral ideology that espouses there's only one way to see things and thus one way to participate in that which is seen.
What I'm saying that if we don't do just that, we're headed for nowhere good, and fast. You can compare it to whatever you wish, but the truth of the matter is that if there isn't a collaborative effort to fight the problem, the problem will just grow. That's not a "zealot monocrebral ideology", it's an undeniable fact.

Quote:We're breathing putrid air because the whole planet's atmosphere is toxic to some degree, while Earth's filtration system/organic lungs are being clear cut in terms of acres every day, because rain forests aren't something to respect or gaze at with awe.

Instead they're worthy only of harvest for the hardwoods present therein, since we hominids can never have enough butcher block tables, or foot stools. And thank goodness for all that space afforded after those ancient tree's are ripped from the ground, because otherwise McDonald's wouldn't have a chance to corral future Big Macs at less buck on the hoof per acre.
Do you eat at McDonald's?
How about shopping at Pier 1 Imports?
You are responsible for your part in this world. Neither you nor I are responsible for the whole world's present predicament.
That I do. I am one of the consumers that buys things which they don't need. I am part of the society that is responsible for the steady destruction of the biosphere, which makes me responsible as well. I've never done anything past recycling to help the environment, which makes me responsible for the mess I'm contributing to.

Quote:And amazingly enough to some, it's not a predicament at all. It's profit, expansionism, the way of the world. It's perception that is reality and each one of us see's things differently. To see things from your point of view as something we all have to fix, if you deem it needs fixing, is going to let you to feel a great deal of stress and disappointment all your days because it is natural we won't all comply or agree with your point of view.
I'm not certain what you meant with this. Are you saying I shouldn't worry about it because not everybody will agree with me, which will only stress me out? Because that's.. yea. And sure, it can be disputed whether or not we have to fix it, but the fact that if unfixed, we're beyond screwed is a given. From that stems the whole, "yanno, if we want a good 30% of the species on the planet to survive, MAAAAYBE, we should fix this," thing.

Quote:That's why I said, and I did so from experience in thinking I could be but one of many that would change the world, but that was long ago when I was naive, arrogant and clueless as to the scope of my presumed undertaking, you can't hope to save the whole world.
Of course I can't, but I can contribute to the effort of saving it. If I do contribute, I might inspire others to do the same. And those others might each inspire more people, and those people can inspire more people, and so on and so on. By the end of it all, you have a nicely sized group of people fighting for the cause just because you joined.

Quote: All you are responsible for is saving yourself and your space within it.
Earth herself is capable of saving herself. Think about it. Worst case scenario, as many have arrived at this already so it's not a worst case in future at all but a present state, if we foul our air so much we can not breathe. If the sun becomes so hot we're green housed like ferns, if our waters are so toxic with ocean dumping and other violations that we can not fish, swim or drink what is drawn and purified for use, we're dead. While those elements alive as Earth's resources slowly transformed by our depraved indifference cause Earth to evolve herself to adapt and conform, altering the environment to give life one more chance. Or not, as the extinction tables would indicate.
I'm not debating whether or not the earth would eventually heal over the scar left by our existence. That's also a given. I'm saying that it shouldn't have to go through millions and hundreds of millions of years to fix a problem caused by people who could have fixed said mistake in a lot less time. We don't need to let all of those organisms die and let all of that evolutionary work be flushed down the drain. Why sit idly by and let things go to shit when we can do something about it? Because we're too busy?

Quote:
And that's why, if we kill ourselves by our own hand as a global species, it's our collective fault. If that does happen, it's because we contaminated our terrestrial environment and Earth showed us through adapting to that, what that level of ignorance costs us.
And while it took a village to destroy all of us, though among the many there were a great many who fought to change things so we wouldn't murder ourselves through contamination of the environment that sustained us, the fact of nature is one person can only work their best to do what they can for themselves and as such effect the world through their part. One can not save nor change, the many. 1 vs. 6+ billion. Not even Vegas would take those odds.
Again, I'm not claiming that one life can save everything. I'm saying that one life can greatly aid in saving everything. It may seem corny, but one person can make a huge difference if they try. This is present in anything you do.

Science, for example. Think of any influential scientist you can. Sure, if they hand't existed, odds are that somebody else would have come up with the same idea eventually. However, because that one person came up with that idea first, it saved us who knows how many years before the next person came along and thought of it. That's precious time for more scientists to work off of that one scientists work and other scientists to work off of that work and eventually discover something wonderful. If we all had a mentality that we can't save the world, so we shouldn't even try, the world would be a very different place today.

Now I understand the wording their is faulty, since that's basically what caused us to be so technologically advanced and increased our destructive power when it comes to the environment in the first place, but my point remains the same. One life can make a hell of a difference.


Quote:That we're even having cause to address this matter, given the issues of concern presented regarding the need to save the Earth from ourselves, would lend evidence we are already screwed. Now it's a matter of sloganizing, legislating and actively pursuing salvation from our own poor choices that have caused us to arrive at this present predicament.
We're not completely screwed. Things can still be done, damage can be minimized and lives can be preserved.


Quote: Probably?Undecided
Well the probably comment was mostly just regarding whatever it is we as a species end up doing to the Earth. I've learned not to underestimate people. WHO KNOWS. PLANET CRUSHER BOMB? IT COULD HAPPEN... MAYBE.

Quote: Modern humans have been guests here for roughly 35 thousand years, give or take according to some studies. The Anthropologist Richard Leakey's findings in 1967 led to his arriving at the conclusion the fossil skeletal remains he discovered put the earliest of our kind at roughly 130 thousand years ago. While the later 20th century discoveries in parts of Ethiopia have provided a later frame of 195 thousand years for that what appears as the first humans on Earth.

Neanderthals (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) no longer walk the planet. Nor do Crô-Magnon (Homo sapiens sapiens), Australopithecus afarensis, or Homo habilis. Earth/environment finally killed them and then did definitely fix the place up and from that evolution Homo sapiens are able to challenge her to do it all over again. It's a cyclical relationship, you see.
Only difference is neither of those other species chopped down a massive percentage of the earth's forestry and killed off an incredible amount of it's biosphere. But again I'm not debating the fact that the earth can fix itself.
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03-03-2011, 07:47 PM
 
RE: Biology Nobelist:: Natural selection will destroy us
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03-03-2011, 10:12 PM
RE: Biology Nobelist:: Natural selection will destroy us
If we reach a scientific age before our resources run out or the religious nutjobs do their thing we'll be fine. It's this generations job to get us there.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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