Birthday outing...so to speak
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28-08-2015, 06:10 AM
RE: Birthday outing...so to speak
Tonechaser, have you sent that letter yet? I've got a few edits that I'd recommend if you're interested in hearing them.
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28-08-2015, 07:51 AM
RE: Birthday outing...so to speak
Wow, that was brilliant!

I wish I could come off like that with my parents, but considering I still live with them, I would have to contend with talking to them face to face, and that's where I fail at getting a point across. I could write the most eloquent letter expressing my views, then flop when actually trying to talk about it.

Heres to hoping she'll understand you better!

Ignorance is not to be ignored.

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28-08-2015, 11:36 AM
RE: Birthday outing...so to speak
(28-08-2015 06:10 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Tonechaser, have you sent that letter yet? I've got a few edits that I'd recommend if you're interested in hearing them.

Aliza, I sent it last weekend. However, if there are areas that I can improve on, I want to improve. I'm always open to constructive criticism, even after the fact.

**Crickets** -- God
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28-08-2015, 12:13 PM
RE: Birthday outing...so to speak
(28-08-2015 07:51 AM)Loom Wrote:  Wow, that was brilliant!

I wish I could come off like that with my parents, but considering I still live with them, I would have to contend with talking to them face to face, and that's where I fail at getting a point across. I could write the most eloquent letter expressing my views, then flop when actually trying to talk about it.

Heres to hoping she'll understand you better!

Loom, I don't want to speak for everyone else but I still get scared shitless when I talk to people face to face. Why? I think it's because we want to be accepted and also because we want to be able to stand our ground and give correct supporting information to back our statements. However, the more you learn and talk to people the easier it becomes. And it's always ok to say "I don't know...let me get back to you on that". I'd much rather research something, think it over and come to a conclusion in time then react under an appeal to emotion. I find that the more emotional I get about a subject the more irrational I become in my statements. It pays for me to keep a calm level approach. I feel like I'm more in control of the conversation then.

Oh and this is good advice as well: You don't have to prove shit. The proof lies in their court. THEY need to come hard with the evidence that a god exists. You just have to ask the right questions. Smile

**Crickets** -- God
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31-08-2015, 10:59 AM
RE: Birthday outing...so to speak
(28-08-2015 11:36 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  
(28-08-2015 06:10 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Tonechaser, have you sent that letter yet? I've got a few edits that I'd recommend if you're interested in hearing them.

Aliza, I sent it last weekend. However, if there are areas that I can improve on, I want to improve. I'm always open to constructive criticism, even after the fact.

Yeah, I had this grand piece of advice for you, but I *just* got off the phone with a fundamentalist Christian, and the more that I speak to these folks, the more I realize that I'm ill equipped to offer any advice at all. Facepalm
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31-08-2015, 11:06 AM
RE: Birthday outing...so to speak
(31-08-2015 10:59 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(28-08-2015 11:36 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  Aliza, I sent it last weekend. However, if there are areas that I can improve on, I want to improve. I'm always open to constructive criticism, even after the fact.

Yeah, I had this grand piece of advice for you, but I *just* got off the phone with a fundamentalist Christian, and the more that I speak to these folks, the more I realize that I'm ill equipped to offer any advice at all. Facepalm

This is exactly why I stated what I did in my letter about the human tendency to succumb to the backfire effect. I've seen it in myself, I see it in others, regardless of race, religion, sex, etc. From global warming to views of religion: We will either be open and investigate critically the information we have been presented or we'll reject it outright, dig in deeper and look for confirmation in our biases and echo chambers.

**Crickets** -- God
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31-08-2015, 12:16 PM
RE: Birthday outing...so to speak
Re-reading this thread, it dawns on me how many of us have stories of religious parents either attacking/demonizing us or outright forcing us away. At the very least, they'll attack our honesty, our decency, and demean us. They and their believer allies directly attack our social standing and acceptance in our original communities as a way of pressuring us to stay "within the herd".

They even have songs and literature that tell their congregants how horrible it is for children to have nonbelievers as parents, claiming that we're abusive and/or immoral, or worse. (For example, this song: The Little Girl by John Michael Montgomery.)

I'm trying to imagine any possible real-world scenario in which an atheist would harm his child over the personal choices of belief that child makes. We might help them understand the science a little better, I suppose, but that's it.

In contrast, we face real and continuing abuse, emotional and verbal, but as stated a few times there is always that underlying threat of being "taken out in a corn field". Sad

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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31-08-2015, 02:20 PM
RE: Birthday outing...so to speak
(31-08-2015 12:16 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Re-reading this thread, it dawns on me how many of us have stories of religious parents either attacking/demonizing us or outright forcing us away. At the very least, they'll attack our honesty, our decency, and demean us. They and their believer allies directly attack our social standing and acceptance in our original communities as a way of pressuring us to stay "within the herd".

They even have songs and literature that tell their congregants how horrible it is for children to have nonbelievers as parents, claiming that we're abusive and/or immoral, or worse. (For example, this song: The Little Girl by John Michael Montgomery.)

I'm trying to imagine any possible real-world scenario in which an atheist would harm his child over the personal choices of belief that child makes. We might help them understand the science a little better, I suppose, but that's it.

In contrast, we face real and continuing abuse, emotional and verbal, but as stated a few times there is always that underlying threat of being "taken out in a corn field". Sad

I agree 100% with what you said Rocket...with the despicable addition that all of this is done..."with love".....because they care so much for us. They care so much that they don't even realize how condescending it is because their entire life / world is based on this information being true.

**Crickets** -- God
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31-08-2015, 04:23 PM
RE: Birthday outing...so to speak
(31-08-2015 02:20 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  
(31-08-2015 12:16 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Re-reading this thread, it dawns on me how many of us have stories of religious parents either attacking/demonizing us or outright forcing us away. At the very least, they'll attack our honesty, our decency, and demean us. They and their believer allies directly attack our social standing and acceptance in our original communities as a way of pressuring us to stay "within the herd".

They even have songs and literature that tell their congregants how horrible it is for children to have nonbelievers as parents, claiming that we're abusive and/or immoral, or worse. (For example, this song: The Little Girl by John Michael Montgomery.)

I'm trying to imagine any possible real-world scenario in which an atheist would harm his child over the personal choices of belief that child makes. We might help them understand the science a little better, I suppose, but that's it.

In contrast, we face real and continuing abuse, emotional and verbal, but as stated a few times there is always that underlying threat of being "taken out in a corn field". Sad

I agree 100% with what you said Rocket...with the despicable addition that all of this is done..."with love".....because they care so much for us. They care so much that they don't even realize how condescending it is because their entire life / world is based on this information being true.

And no matter how much evidence you present to counter their points, they can't even SEE it.

It's like when I talk to fundamentals, I switch to a foreign language and they can't comprehend anything that I say. -Which in itself would be okay, except that I'm never the one who starts the conversation down *this* path. No counter argument can even penetrate their brains to ever be evaluated in the first place. And they just keep. on. pounding. the. same. argument. over and over and over. It's mind-boggling.
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31-08-2015, 08:42 PM
RE: Birthday outing...so to speak
Aliza - At least you can answer "yes" when they get all doe-eyed and stick out their bottom lip and whimper, "But at least you believe in SOMETHING, right?" Like you're about to stab them if you admit to being a real-life atheist.

I hate when they do that. Angry

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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