Bishop's anger at middle-class Church: 'The poorer you are, the less we value you'
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06-08-2017, 07:02 AM
Bishop's anger at middle-class Church: 'The poorer you are, the less we value you'
How much does society value the poor. Are theists & non-theists as bad as each other? Should we hold the church to a higher standard? Given religion considers and argues it is the author of morality then in my opinion there is a problem here.

There is good evidence that poverty breeds poverty. Thus unless society enables social mobility by resolving socioeconomic inequalities then nothing will change. Seems the church is more interested in giving the wealthy money than the poor. This would seem to go against the teaching I received when I was a Christian.

I also highlight recent article that indicates that Christians are twice as likely to blame poverty on a lack of effort. (See: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...75541.html )

Can Christians defend this? Can non-theists really take the moral high ground?
https://www.christiantoday.com/article/b...111455.htm

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06-08-2017, 07:21 AM
RE: Bishop's anger at middle-class Church: 'The poorer you are, the less we value you'
"Fuck the poor. Get a job, you damn leeches." --Jesus, Matthew 5:3

And I love how "the world's gonna end soon anyway" is a good excuse to not try to make the world a better place. The world has been about to end for 2000 years. People have been expecting an imminent rapture for CENTURIES. You ever heard of Adventists? They were founded by a guy who was wrong about when the end of the world would show up. In 1843.

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06-08-2017, 08:49 AM
RE: Bishop's anger at middle-class Church: 'The poorer you are, the less we value you'
(06-08-2017 07:02 AM)I Dream of Electric Sheep Wrote:  How much does society value the poor.


Proportionaly to what they do to society perhaps.

Quote:Are theists & non-theists as bad as each other?


Only one group worship genocidal tyrant. Guess that is sufficent answer.

Quote: Should we hold the church to a higher standard?


I don't hold church to any standard as it is nothing more than criminal organization at least in part being exempt from law and propagating though brainwashing of people who otherwise might be free from opiate that this clique sells.

Quote: Given religion considers and argues it is the author of morality then in my opinion there is a problem here.


There is - indoctrinated fools thinking that their primitive, tribal taboos should be relevant.

Quote: There is good evidence that poverty breeds poverty. Thus unless society enables social mobility by resolving socioeconomic inequalities then nothing will change.


It's poor form to speak of good evidence and not provide any.

Also saying that nothing will change is false - being born poor probably means staying poor (as I remember upward mobility isn't great in Poland. Can be wrong though) but it's no guarantee. One can improve one situation.

Quote: Seems the church is more interested in giving the wealthy money than the poor. This would seem to go against the teaching I received when I was a Christian.


I think that church is more interested in taking money from both poor and rich than giving it.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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06-08-2017, 09:15 AM
RE: Bishop's anger at middle-class Church: 'The poorer you are, the less we value you'
If you believe that god "rewards the righteous and confounds the wicked" then by definition poverty has to be the fault of the impoverished somehow. Indeed, any sort of suffering, beyond the limited rationalization that it's a "test of faith" or the like, must be self-inflicted if it lasts any length of time. As one pastor admitted to me years ago, "the church is the only army that shoots its own wounded".

This aligned well with the attitudes I encountered amongst people of faith (admittedly, mostly evangelicals) during my late wife's lengthy final illness. There was a reflexive need to diagnose the spiritual "causes" of her issues and quickly fix them. Beyond that, she had no value to them. She was not a person who could reliably commit to be involved as the variability of her symptoms interfered with planning. She was a drag on the sappy / happy mindset that one was supposed to project. Sort of like the song from The Sound of Music, "What do you about a problem like Maria?" except that it was a different problem from being a free spirit, it was the problem of not fitting in, in such a way as to affirm the triumphalist groupthink.

I think the economically poor have the same issue as the sick or the "poor in spirit", which is that they just don't match the promises of the Christian value proposition of always progressing "from glory to glory". Instead they are a sobering reminder that "shit happens" and that empathetic humans have a responsibility to help rather than disparage the disadvantaged.

Of course the basic problem here is that the minute you acknowledge your common humanity with the poor, you acknowledge the possibility that you could fall on hard times, despite your conformity to god's law and your love for god.
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06-08-2017, 09:18 AM
Bishop's anger at middle-class Church The poorer you are, the less we value you'
(06-08-2017 07:02 AM)I Dream of Electric Sheep Wrote:  ...Should we hold the church to a higher standard? Given religion considers and argues it is the author of morality then in my opinion there is a problem here.

As far as I'm concerned the church doesn't exist as any sort of arbiter regarding my personal ethics and morals. Therefore its degree of "status" to me is a non-question. And here in Australia, that probably accounts for 2/3 of the population, as only 7% of us attend church on a regular basis (at least once a week).

And speaking of morals...

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06-08-2017, 10:09 AM
RE: Bishop's anger at middle-class Church: 'The poorer you are, the less we value you'
There was an article recently in the Washington Post which showed Christians in America are two times more likely to blame poverty on poor people just not trying hard enough.

And unfortunately, it's an attitude I've seen first hand. There are four or five Methodist churches in my hometown. One is thriving (my mom's, where almost all of those attending are upper lower class at best, but most people, not even that), but their church was condemned due to structural instability (the city rightfully doesn't want to have a roof collapse on a few hundred people), the others are slowly dying. One of the dying ones has a massive stone building in the middle of downtown that takes up the entire corner of a city block. Whoever it is that runs Methodist churches (I know they have Bishops or something) wanted to merge them all into the massive stone church...and the people in it flipped out. Their richest members all threatened to go elsewhere with their money, because they didn't want "those people" (poor white, black, and hispanic people) to be allowed in their church.

You know what my favorite Mass I've ever been to was? It was a blizzard out and at the time I lived only two blocks from the parish I was a member of. There was an old woman next door to it that never missed Mass; her kids literally carried her through the snow so that she could attend. It was probably going to be her, the priest, and myself, and that was it...but then the doors at the back of the church opened, and the priest came in with half a dozen homeless people that he had told to not be out there cold and wet; he didn't care if they were Catholic or not, but no one should be out in it. And we had Mass; afterward, he opened his rectory to them since there were no more rooms at the shelter.

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06-08-2017, 11:18 AM
RE: Bishop's anger at middle-class Church: 'The poorer you are, the less we value you'
(06-08-2017 10:09 AM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  afterward, he opened his rectory to them since there were no more rooms at the shelter.

When he later decided that they'd overstayed their welcome, was there an e-rection? Tongue

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-08-2017, 11:40 AM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2017 11:45 AM by I Dream of Electric Sheep.)
RE: Bishop's anger at middle-class Church: 'The poorer you are, the less we value you'
Re claim on improved outcome via improving social mobility:-

I didn't include evidence as it wasn't central to the point I was making. But I would highlight the Black Report (1980) Inequalities in Health. But I've also atenned talks by Prof Ian Deary of Edinburgh University, & Prof Henry Burns University of Strathclyde & former chief medical officer for Scotland. Both have produced evidence supporting this. There are some YouTube videos of talks by Henry Burns that could viewed.

I really don't want to turn the thread into a debate on socioeconomic & health inequalities. So I'll leave it there.

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