Black Egyptians
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08-08-2012, 09:19 AM
Black Egyptians
Right now Youtube is flooded with comments on Black Egyptians (and i think they mean the really dark brown close to black).

On how the western world won´t admit that black africans coulæd build a great empire.

So i got to ask is there any peer reviewed scientific facts that support this notion that the Ancient Egyptians where Black or do they dismiss it?
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08-08-2012, 09:33 AM
RE: Black Egyptians
(08-08-2012 09:19 AM)Erikjust Wrote:  So i got to ask is there any peer reviewed scientific facts that support this notion that the Ancient Egyptians where Black or do they dismiss it?

As a layman, my understanding is this: Egyptians were lighter-skinned than their more southerly African kin. Mainly, this was due to the Mediterranean... which was a hugely-populated area of trade and migration, with few enclosed areas for genetic isolation.

Egypt's closest southerly neighbours were the Nubians, who were much darker in skin colour. From memory, Nubian influences (which included Pharaohs) appeared as darker-skinned painted wall carvings.

The bigger point, really, is who fucking cares (apart from mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging racist fucks)?
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08-08-2012, 09:39 AM
RE: Black Egyptians
I've, well since I was old enough to think logically (although some say that was when I was 5 lol--although probably teenage years give or take), have assumed that in Egypt they had a combination of light-tan like appearing to the darkest "black" as we view it color skin. But then as Red Celt mentioned about the wall carvings, I remember seeing different color people and gods, so I figure they had a variation within, or at least had dealings with people of different skin tones.

Doesn't really matter to me. Although as people also assume Jesus was white (which makes me laugh.... Jesus was white! Really, didn't he stick out with the otherwise darker skinned people?) God was white (really? so..... he created man in his image, yet didn't even make them white to begin with given the area?). Really people just think of other places and go with the assumption that they look like the standard in their area, or the majority.... for example, I'd think that "black" people would think of Jesus/god as tan more than white, but white people would think more white than tan. Same would apply for other countries. Think of the world and people in it, and people probably think of the same type of skin tone as themselves (with exceptions), then remember "oh yeah" and then "color-code" the areas based on what is true--if they even know.
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08-08-2012, 09:46 AM
RE: Black Egyptians
(08-08-2012 09:33 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  
(08-08-2012 09:19 AM)Erikjust Wrote:  So i got to ask is there any peer reviewed scientific facts that support this notion that the Ancient Egyptians where Black or do they dismiss it?

As a layman, my understanding is this: Egyptians were lighter-skinned than their more southerly African kin. Mainly, this was due to the Mediterranean... which was a hugely-populated area of trade and migration, with few enclosed areas for genetic isolation.

Egypt's closest southerly neighbours were the Nubians, who were much darker in skin colour. From memory, Nubian influences (which included Pharaohs) appeared as darker-skinned painted wall carvings.

The bigger point, really, is who fucking cares (apart from mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging racist fucks)?

Yeah the Nubians were the Ancient Egyptians southern neighbor.
At one point in history the Nubian empire rivaled, if not stronger, then that of the Egyptian empire at the time.

But it's not limited to Egypt, before Africa was colonized there were several 'black' nations. The obvious one that comes to mind being the Zulu.

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09-08-2012, 12:45 PM
RE: Black Egyptians
Yes there are and here are a few:

Quote:"The question of the genetic origins of ancient Egyptians, particularly those during the Dynastic period, is relevant to the current study. Modern interpretations of Egyptian state formation propose an indigenous origin of the Dynastic civilization (Hassan, 1988). Early Egyptologists considered Upper and Lower Egyptians to be genetically distinct populations, and viewed the Dynastic period as characterized by a conquest of Upper Egypt by the Lower Egyptians. More recent interpretations contend that Egyptians from the south actually expanded into the northern regions during the Dynastic state unification (Hassan, 1988; Savage, 2001), and that the Predynastic populations of Upper and Lower Egypt are morphologically distinct from one another, but not sufficiently distinct to consider either non-indigenous (Zakrzewski, 2007). The Predynastic populations studied here, from Naqada and Badari, are both Upper Egyptian samples, while the Dynastic Egyptian sample (Tarkhan) is from Lower Egypt. The Dynastic Nubian sample is from Upper Nubia (Kerma). Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time.

Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990). Given these and other prior studies suggesting continuity (Berry et al., 1967; Berry and Berry, 1972), and the lack of archaeological evidence of major migration or population replacement during the Neolithic transition in the Nile valley, we may cautiously interpret the dental health changes over time as primarily due to ecological, subsistence, and demographic changes experienced throughout the Nile valley region."

-- AP Starling, JT Stock. (2007). Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528

Here

Quote:"There is no archaeological, linguistic, or historical data which indicate a European or Asiatic invasion of, or migration to, the Nile Valley during First Dynasty times. Previous concepts about the origin of the First Dynasty Egyptians as being somehow external to the Nile Valley or less native are not supported by archaeology(Kieta, S. (1992) Further Studies of Crania From Ancient Northern Africa: An Analysis of Crania From First Dynasty Egyptian Tombs, Using Multiple Discriminant Functions. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 87:245-254)"

Here

Quote:In the sum, the results obtained further strengthen the results from previous analyses. The affinities between Nazlet Khater, MSA, and Khoisan and Khoisan related groups re-emerges. In addition it is possible to detect a separation between North African and sub-saharan populations, with the Neolithic Saharan population from Hasi el Abiod and the Egyptian Badarian group being closely affiliated with modern Negroid groups. Similarly, the Epipaleolithic populations from Site 117 and Wadi Halfa are also affiliated with sub-Saharan LSA, Iron Age and modern Negroid groups rather than with contemporaneous North African populations such as Taforalt and the Ibero-maurusian.
---Pierre M. Vermeersch in Palaeolithic quarrying sites in Upper and Middle Egypt

Here

Quote:"In Libya, which is mostly desert and oasis, there is a visible Negroid element in the sedentary populations, and at the same is true of the Fellahin of Egypt, whether Copt or Muslim. Osteological studies have shown that the Negroid element was stronger in predynastic times than at present, reflecting an early movement northward along the banks of the Nile, which were then heavily forested." (Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. "Populations, Human")

Here

Quote:"Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kushites, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans."
(S. O. Y and A.J. Boyce, "The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians", in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 20-33)

Below what the Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt had concluded about the matter of the race and the surrounding "controversy" of the ancient Egyptians:

Quote:"The race and origins of the Ancient Egyptians have been a source of considerable debate. Scholars in the late and early 20th centuries rejected any considerations of the Egyptians as black Africans by defining the Egyptians either as non-African (i.e Near Easterners or Indo-Aryan), or as members of a separate brown (as opposed to a black) race, or as a mixture of lighter-skinned peoples with black Africans. In the later half of the 20th century, Afrocentric scholars have countered this Eurocentric and often racist perspective by characterizing the Egyptians as black and African....."

"Physical anthropologists are increasingly concluding that racial definitions are the culturally defined product of selective perception and should be replaced in biological terms by the study of populations and clines. Consequently, any characterization of race of the ancient Egyptians depend on modern cultural definitions, not on scientific study. Thus, by modern American standards it is reasonable to characterize the Egyptians as 'blacks' [i.e in a social sense] while acknowledging the scientific evidence for the physical diversity of Africans." Source: Donald Redford (2001) The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt, Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 27-28

Here is what Robert Bauval recently stated about their race in an interview:





In the last couple of years it has been pretty much accepted by most mainstream institutes such as Cambridge, Manchester, Yale, Fitzwilliam ect that ancient Egypt was in fact a "black" African civilization. Here is Manchester's recently released book "Egypt In Its African Context".

There was never really a serious question as to whether or not they were black, but moreso how willing were Western scholars (and the general populace) to accept this fact.
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09-08-2012, 01:51 PM
RE: Black Egyptians
This should be fairly easy to prove/disprove

examine an Egyptian mummy.

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09-08-2012, 03:21 PM
RE: Black Egyptians
I found this page very readable... and it's got nice photos. Shy
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10-08-2012, 01:54 AM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2012 01:58 AM by Filox.)
RE: Black Egyptians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubia#Prehistory

As shown here, Egypt and Nubian society had pretty close relationships, mixed marriages, trade, war... So, yeah, black blacks were a big part of Egypt, the sure as hell build pyramids, along with the rest of the ethnic groups. They could have been slaves, or workers, but they were there for sure. I'm sure that there are more ethnic groups from other parts of Africa as well, but I'm just too lazy to search it all now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramids_of_Nubia

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10-08-2012, 03:14 AM
RE: Black Egyptians
The biological evidence seems to consistently indicate that weren't merely "present" in Egypt, but rather that the Egyptian populace was generally "black".
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10-08-2012, 12:30 PM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2012 12:41 PM by Unbreakable.)
RE: Black Egyptians
Here is what the late historian Basil Davidson had relayed about the issue back in the 80's in his famous documentary about African history and peoples:













Quote:"Two opposing theories for the origin of Dynastic Egyptians dominated scholarly debate over the last century: whether the ancient Egyptians were black Africans (historically referred to as Negroid) originating biologically and culturally in Saharo-Tropical Africa, or whether they originated as a Dynastic Race in the Mediterranean or western Asian regions (people historically categorized as White, or Caucasoid). Contemporary physical anthropologists recognize, however that race is not a useful biological concept when applied to humans. Although many people believe they can distinguish "races" on the basis of skin color, more of the variation in human genetic makeup can be attributed to differences between these so-called races than between them......There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas.......must be placed in the context of hypotheses informed by archaeological, linguistic, geographic and other data. In such contexts, the physical anthropological evidence indicates that early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation. This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection, influenced by culture and geography." ("Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999). pp 328-332)

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