Black Female Atheist vs Scared Theist Professor
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14-11-2012, 01:53 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2012 03:07 PM by PeiPei22.)
Black Female Atheist vs Scared Theist Professor
Okay, so in case anyone hasn't seen my other threads, I'm a black female atheist currently taking a course in Islam at my university; keep in mind that this is NOT by choice but because it's a requirement for graduation and the course on Buddhism was already filled up. . . Angry

So I've already expressed in my past threads my dislike for not only the course itself, but for my self-righteous professor, who mind you is not a Muslim himself, but a Catholic, ex-priest (who always claims that he isn't in the class to preach but I've noticed that he constantly manages to lecture on his own views of god, religion,etc ). And I call him self-righteous because I think that he is teaching this course in a very patronizing way, almost as if to say, "Let me tell you all the silly things that Muslims believe in so I can correct them by then telling you all the truth, aka Roman Catholicism." Not surprisingly, while he's lecturing he rarely, if ever, gives the class a chance to challenge him on any of his claims or allows for class discussion on a particular lesson. (Usually my other professors encourage us to ask questions, chat about the subject with our classmates to find out who agrees, disagrees, etc)

Now he's already in the doghouse with me by suggesting that pregnancy by rape is somehow part of "God's Plan" and that's why abortion is a sin. Well this morning he tried to pull another fast one. . . .

I know you all will love this one too Tongue

The title of today's lesson was "The 5 Proofs of the existence of God"
Thumbsup Amazing right? I actually stopped doodling in my notebook to pay attention to this one.
So here were his "proofs" for how/why there is no doubt that god exists.(These are all what he had written on the board in front of us, I copied everything word for word).

1) There must be a Prime/ 1st mover: evolution was god's way of creating"

2) Uncaused cause vs cause effect i.e, nothing made god, god was just always there then suddenly decided to create the universe. (Again, his words, not mine)

3) Contingency-created something from nothing. Invisible creations. Basically god is the only being that can created something from nothing, he basically "willed" everything into existence.

4)Ultimate Perfection-God is perfect because all of his creations are perfect

5)Ultimate intelligence-because god is perfect and created the universe, he knows about everything that happens and everything that is going to happen, and that's why we should love, trust, and fear him.

He mentioned nothing about scientific evidence or physical proof that we could actually test for ourselves. He never mentioned any of the previous having to make any sense to us, whatsoever.
His basic reason for why god must exist is "'Cuz he just does, so there." Dodgy

So that was strike #1.

The second strike was an oldie but a goodie: life after death. The topic of the potential apocalaypse next month was brought up, and he asked a few people are they scared for December 21st 2012, will they run to church, temple or what have you to repent for their sins?

The first guy he asked simply said, "No." And I could've hugged him for that. Another girl behind asked why people should be afraid of death anyway, since it's inevitable and we shouldn't waste our lives trying to prevent it or behind afraid of it. Now my professor took this very mature and sensible comment about NOT being afraid of death, and claimed that this girl was "Ready to die." (Her point was that she didn't fear death, not that she wanted to die.)

So after class they had a little discussion at this desk about the matter, and since my desk is right next to his in front of the room, I just sat and listened to them chat; turns out the girl wasn't religious but still a deist, and went on and on about how god blesses her everyday, and she doesn't need to see him to believe in him and all that noise. I waited a moment and began to respond to her and started to reply by quoting a comment regarding death by my hero, Christopher Hitchens (a quote made shortly before his own death), when the professor interrupted me in mid-sentence to respond to my classmate. By time he finished making his absurd point, his next class was starting to file in so we had to leave. I stood there looking him directly in the face for a moment, and he gave me this look like "Oh, did you want to talk? Too bad, it's time for you to go, my next class is starting."

I have a feeling he already knew what I was going to say, or along the lines of it, because I have politely let him know verbally at least 3 times already that I am a non-believer, and I've also on a few occassions tried to challenge the points he's made in class. And everytime I threw him a curveball and made a counterpoint, he'd re-address the question to the class (by simply re-stating what I clearly just said in his own words) then getting back to his point. He's never successfully managed to answer any of challenging points and he seems quick to change the subject. I'm not surprised, but it still pisses me off that he seems too scared to take my questions head on.

I'd love a challenge! In fact, I'd be more than happy to to a friendly debate with a theist. I think he's just too scared to do so in front of 20 or so people in a classroom. My thing is, if you're so knowledgable on the subject and if you think you're truly right, what are you so afraid of? If you think you can take me on and debunk all or even some of my claims, be my guest!

But no one ever hit a homerun by sitting in the dugout, know what I mean? Cool
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14-11-2012, 02:27 PM
RE: Black Female Atheist vs Scared Theist Professor
About point #4.

You need to ask him this:

How can perfection move to imperfection?

If God made everything perfect, then how can anything be imperfect? If God made everything perfect, then everything should remain perfect.

Sin would have no effect on perfection. Sin doesn't affect God's perfection because sin cannot act upon God because of God's perfection.

Likewise, sin couldn't act upon something else that is perfect. If a perfect creation moved from being perfect to imperfect through sin, then it was never perfect to begin with.

Moreover, even if something has the propensity to sin, it is still imperfect; because for it to remain perfect, it has to have a 0% chance to move into imperfection.

Since God created man and man sinned, God must have created man to be imperfect. If He did not, then man would still be perfect and there would be no sin.

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14-11-2012, 02:35 PM
RE: Black Female Atheist vs Scared Theist Professor
Also, it is impossible to debate the metaphysical empirically.

"Proving" that there is a God through empirical evidence is impossible.

He's fooling himself if he thinks he can.

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14-11-2012, 02:37 PM
RE: Black Female Atheist vs Scared Theist Professor
PeiPei,

Were these points (obviously all ridiculously archaic and not worth debating) made from an Islamic perspective?

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14-11-2012, 02:45 PM
RE: Black Female Atheist vs Scared Theist Professor
(14-11-2012 02:37 PM)DLJ Wrote:  PeiPei,

Were these points (obviously all ridiculously archaic and not worth debating) made from an Islamic perspective?
Now that I think about it, I believe all of his points were taken from a book of collected works by St. Thomas Aquinas.
So I guess you could say his points were technically from a Roman Catholic's perspective (once again proving that my professor has a hidden agenda).
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14-11-2012, 02:56 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2012 03:02 PM by PeiPei22.)
RE: Black Female Atheist vs Scared Theist Professor
That reminds me, THIS was the statement by Christopher Hitchens (regarding the fear of death and dying) that I was going to use before I was rudely shot down. I can't remember it word for word, but it went something like this:

Hitch was using the analogy of life being like an eternal party, and that the one thing many people fear most is that one day, they're going to be tapped on the shoulder and told that not only do they have to leave the party, but that the party is going to continue on without them and they can never, ever come back.(The person tapping you on the shoulder being the Grim Reaper I guess (?) LOL)

Then he said something like the only thing that could be worse than that is being told that you absolutely MUST stay for the party forever, that you can never and will never leave, and you are COMMANDED by the host to have fun. Or basically what the theist would argue is "life after death".
The moment he said it, I knew I loved it. Because it was said by the man who you could tell my just looking at him, was "knocking on deaths door". As I recall, Hitch had made the party analogy just after someone either in the audience on the panel asked him how he was feeling and Hitch said very plainly, "Well, I'm dying. . . .but so are you, only a bit slower."


Bowing Gotta love me some Hitch
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14-11-2012, 03:02 PM
RE: Black Female Atheist vs Scared Theist Professor
(14-11-2012 02:35 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Also, it is impossible to debate the metaphysical empirically.

"Proving" that there is a God through empirical evidence is impossible.

He's fooling himself if he thinks he can.
That's very good KC. Smile

I'll start the sentence then I want you to finish, okay?

Now say it with the class: "Beliefs not supported by evidence are...."

A single action is worth more than the words it takes to describe it.
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14-11-2012, 03:08 PM
RE: Black Female Atheist vs Scared Theist Professor
...based on faith.

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14-11-2012, 03:11 PM
RE: Black Female Atheist vs Scared Theist Professor
Very good Thumbsup

And faith as a means of determining something as correct or true is...?

A single action is worth more than the words it takes to describe it.
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14-11-2012, 03:13 PM
RE: Black Female Atheist vs Scared Theist Professor
...impossible.

Didn't I just say this? Consider

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