Black Lives Matter
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
16-08-2015, 04:22 PM
RE: Black Lives Matter
(16-08-2015 04:16 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 03:49 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Basically the point boils down to this. The line of division isn't drawn by those proclaiming "black lives matter" but by those who proclaim "all lives matter." Because it is precisely that last slogan that the BLM crowd is advocating for, but is not the reality in the world we live in today. Today, black lives are not equivalent in the eyes of the generic american. People don't react every time a black man/woman/kid is killed in the same way as when a white man/woman/kid is. The media doesn't respond the same way.

So the BLM movement is really about saying that Black Lives Matter TOO and that black lives should be given equal treatment in society and in the media.

When people say "all lives matter" all they are doing is dismissing the BLM crowd. A black man/woman/kid is killed in an egregious way (Sandra Bland, Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice, etc) and the BLM crowd proclaims that "Black Lives Matter" and then the ALM crowd dismisses it by saying that "All lives matter" when what they really mean is that they don't care about the black lives being taken.

Meanwhile, Zachary Hammond is shot in the back by a cop over pot, and the ALM crowd is suspiciously silent while the BLM crowd have been vocal about this unnecessary tragedy too. The ALM crowd doesn't really care about all lives, they care about specific lives. Specifically, people they consider worthy of being mourned and everyone else should be ignored.

I guess I should've specified that I don't back any of these little groups. I'm just saying that it's exclusionary. It's not inviting in conversation, it has this hate tint to it.

Except in practice it tends to the those that retort "All Lives Matter" that are the closet (and sometimes non-closeted) racists. I can't say I am enthralled with all the ideals that the #BlackLivesMatter cause has embraced but it's base sentiment is correct.

[Image: 11363699_1478908559086294_459872020_n.jpg]

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like Revenant77x's post
16-08-2015, 04:24 PM
Black Lives Matter
(16-08-2015 04:22 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 04:16 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  I guess I should've specified that I don't back any of these little groups. I'm just saying that it's exclusionary. It's not inviting in conversation, it has this hate tint to it.

Except in practice it tends to the those that retort "All Lives Matter" that are the closet (and sometimes non-closeted) racists. I can't say I am enthralled with all the ideals that the #BlackLivesMatter cause has embraced but it's base sentiment is correct.

[Image: 11363699_1478908559086294_459872020_n.jpg]

I love that picture, it captures it perfectly.

A minority struggles. A minority community is wrought with violence and poverty and drugs. Their schools crumbling. The average person knows fuck-all about any of it, nor cares. But if anything like that happens in a predominantly white area, it'll fucking be news on every major outlet.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-08-2015, 05:20 PM
RE: Black Lives Matter
What I've observed is the people who trumpet "all lives matter" the loudest are often the same ones who call any black person who's been killed a "thug" and imply that society is better off without him or her. These same people have never been treated disrespectfully by authority figures and literally don't seem able to imagine that happening to them.

I agree in principle with "all lives matter," but it's hard to align myself with people I feel to be bigots.

Many people in authority--police, teachers, etc.--often have major problems exercising that authority without going on power trips. I'm hoping that the use of body cameras and phone cameras is going to make the situation better by showing what actually happens in these confrontations.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like julep's post
16-08-2015, 05:27 PM
RE: Black Lives Matter
I'm still laughing at the concept of "proved in a court of law".

American courts are the biggest jokes you can imagine, and anyone who says otherwise has never been on the defender's side. US (especially state) prosecutors have so much power to shape the conversation that they could convict a ham sandwich, if the judge is their friend.

It is especially easy to convince a jury of something when the person on trial belongs to a feared group.

In the words of Bob Dylan, "And the all-white jury agreeeeeeeeeeed!"




"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
16-08-2015, 05:50 PM
RE: Black Lives Matter
(16-08-2015 05:20 PM)julep Wrote:  What I've observed is the people who trumpet "all lives matter" the loudest are often the same ones who call any black person who's been killed a "thug" and imply that society is better off without him or her. These same people have never been treated disrespectfully by authority figures and literally don't seem able to imagine that happening to them.

I agree in principle with "all lives matter," but it's hard to align myself with people I feel to be bigots.

Many people in authority--police, teachers, etc.--often have major problems exercising that authority without going on power trips. I'm hoping that the use of body cameras and phone cameras is going to make the situation better by showing what actually happens in these confrontations.

Not as long as they have the power to turn them on/off, it won't. And here in Missouri, 2 hrs away from St.Louis, they are notorious for turning off the dash cams or "damaging/losing" the video when it suits them. It's especially bad in the county jails, when they want to lose the video in order to beat an inmate's ass. Sometimes an honest cop will make sure the video (intact) gets into the right hands, but that almost always means they won't be working there long.

In the first, SuperMax/Maximum Security prison I went to after the judge and ADA lied to a jury in more ways than I could have believed was possible in the United States, they beat an inmate almost to death because he talked back to the "goon squad" (the taser-armed, heavily-armored all-in-black "shock troops" who do cell-extractions, cell-tosses, and other "security" measures) when they called him "boy", taking him to a place there were no cameras to do it-- but because an office light was on, the scene was silhouetted on a wall that WAS covered by cameras. I knew the officer who reported the video to his superior (I had helped him understand the Latin legal terminology on his divorce paperwork, a few months prior, and he spoke to me about it to find out what his legal options were after the incident above), and she (the Captain) told him to destroy the tape. Instead, he made copies and sent one to the FBI and one to the local news. The DOJ came in and crawled around for a couple of days, and what happened? Nothing. The inmate was transferred to a federal "hospital" facility, the guard was put on the worst duty in the prison (the psych ward of The Hole) and eventually terminated, and the Captain was promoted to an Administrative Staff position.

I've learned a lot about "justice", in the past decade. Just Us.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
16-08-2015, 06:00 PM
RE: Black Lives Matter
(16-08-2015 05:50 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 05:20 PM)julep Wrote:  What I've observed is the people who trumpet "all lives matter" the loudest are often the same ones who call any black person who's been killed a "thug" and imply that society is better off without him or her. These same people have never been treated disrespectfully by authority figures and literally don't seem able to imagine that happening to them.

I agree in principle with "all lives matter," but it's hard to align myself with people I feel to be bigots.

Many people in authority--police, teachers, etc.--often have major problems exercising that authority without going on power trips. I'm hoping that the use of body cameras and phone cameras is going to make the situation better by showing what actually happens in these confrontations.

Not as long as they have the power to turn them on/off, it won't. And here in Missouri, 2 hrs away from St.Louis, they are notorious for turning off the dash cams or "damaging/losing" the video when it suits them. It's especially bad in the county jails, when they want to lose the video in order to beat an inmate's ass. Sometimes an honest cop will make sure the video (intact) gets into the right hands, but that almost always means they won't be working there long.

In the first, SuperMax/Maximum Security prison I went to after the judge and ADA lied to a jury in more ways than I could have believed was possible in the United States, they beat an inmate almost to death because he talked back to the "goon squad" (the taser-armed, heavily-armored all-in-black "shock troops" who do cell-extractions, cell-tosses, and other "security" measures) when they called him "boy", taking him to a place there were no cameras to do it-- but because an office light was on, the scene was silhouetted on a wall that WAS covered by cameras. I knew the officer who reported the video to his superior (I had helped him understand the Latin legal terminology on his divorce paperwork, a few months prior, and he spoke to me about it to find out what his legal options were after the incident above), and she (the Captain) told him to destroy the tape. Instead, he made copies and sent one to the FBI and one to the local news. The DOJ came in and crawled around for a couple of days, and what happened? Nothing. The inmate was transferred to a federal "hospital" facility, the guard was put on the worst duty in the prison (the psych ward of The Hole) and eventually terminated, and the Captain was promoted to an Administrative Staff position.

I've learned a lot about "justice", in the past decade. Just Us.

I absolutely oppose all attempts by the police to limit people filming them because of the many situations I've heard and read about similar to the ones you describe. It's horrible and scary to see what the powerful can do to the rest of us, when they feel like it--your experiences are chilling.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like julep's post
16-08-2015, 06:18 PM
RE: Black Lives Matter
(16-08-2015 12:38 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  Do we as black people have problems with racial profiling with law enforcement? Sure.

First off, I'm not an American, have never been there.
So given that, I have to ask. Is it assumed that police do racial profiling because they hate black people "because of skin colour", or distrust black people "because of skin colour", or because they perceive a higher percentage of crimes to be perpetrated by people of black skin?

Here's a stupid statement, but bear with me please.
If they are in a poverty stricken neighborhood and observe a "poorly" dressed young black person behind the wheel of an expensive car, what is the likelihood that the car is stolen?
What about the reciprocal?
If they are in a poverty stricken neighborhood and observe a "poorly" dressed young white person behind the wheel of an expensive car, what is the likelihood that the car is stolen?

If they are in a poverty stricken neighborhood and observe an expensive care being driven, what is the likelihood that the driver is black or likelihood that the driver is white?

I don't know the answers, but I generally assume that profiling is done in order to increase the chances of catching a crime.
So the problem of racial profiling (IMHO) is likely to be the perception regarding the respective races. How can the perception be changed? If black crimes reduce much much below white crimes then will we see racial profiling where the whites are the victims? Perhaps the real statistics are already showing that blacks are less likely to be the criminals, if this is the case then it would be a much simpler problem to solve, just do the surveys and publish the data, educate the police better. Perhaps even go to Hollywood and tv production companies and try to get more black heroes and white criminals (easier said than done).

Of course, I understand that no-one should be pulled over just based on the colour of the skin of the driver. It could be quite frustrating if it happens even only once, let alone several times to the same driver.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-08-2015, 07:53 PM
RE: Black Lives Matter
Profiling is absolutely designed to catch people committing crimes. Most cops would not think they are racist. Few people, anymore, in the USA would say "I am a racist person". That's the difference between personal bigotry and systemic racism.

The problem is that people in power for decades, prior to now, who really were trying to keep an apartheid-like system of racial superiority going in this country have deliberately set things up so that social decay increased in the ghettos of America, and as a result, poverty got worse and crime increased. But when you get the perception that "that's just the way things are", and especially when you enact a Drug War that acts like the Spanish Inquisition or the Communist Red Scare, paying informants and/or putting low-level users into situations where they must "give us names", it is easy to manufacture cases against people. Like the Witch Trials of old, you really only need to have one citizen (and it can be the same one, if it's a paid "Confidential Informant" snitch, whom they have "over a barrel" because of a drug habit they feed or charges they hold over his/her head in order to get them to say whatever they want said) to point to another citizen or many other citizens, and then professional prosecutors take over and know how to spin things so that they can convict almost anyone. With the help of papers who profit of sensationalist crime news, they can portray anyone so badly that the jury is tainted, even if they wouldn't have convicted the person prior. Then they take you out of your home in the middle of the night, put you in isolation cells, and hold you where you don't have access to witnesses (most of whom are afraid to come to the notice of the officials by testifying in your favor) or materials with which to defend yourself, are assigned a crappy, overworked Public Defender for a lawyer, and are held for months or even years in the county jail while you await your trial. They then overcharge you (one alleged crime can result in five to ten actual charges) and stack up the threat of lengthy incarceration--30 years or more--if you force them to take you to trial, so even innocent people will take a "plea bargain" (or "plead out", as we say), just to get out of that awful jail and avoid decades of imprisonment. Once you're in the system with a felony, you're a "cash cow" they can pick up and charge at any time they need to "close out a case", knowing that if you go to trial then, they can tell the jury all about your past conviction(s), and the jurors will likely convict, so you'll plead out again. The situation is made worse, in terms of jury convictions, if you belong to a group that suffers common bigotry.

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/u...042903.pdf

The highly-conservative estimates by commissioned studies show that that roughly 4-6% of the people incarcerated in America are wrongly so... I read an article, which I cannot now find, by the US Department of Justice that put the number possibly between 8% and 12% (I say 10% for a nice round figure).

http://www.thenation.com/article/how-man...nt-prison/

Another good paper on the size of, problems associated with, and causes of wrongful incarceration:
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/ronhuff.htm

And if you want to know about the corruption from America's "war on drugs" and "tough on crime" policies, about the Prison Industrial Complex's corruption of the system, and/or how systemic racism and racial profiling work, you have Google. There are probably a million articles on those subjects.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
16-08-2015, 08:11 PM
RE: Black Lives Matter
By the way, 4-6% may not sound that bad until you realize we have 2.3 million incarcerated, so that's between 92,000 and 138,000 innocent people behind bars. Perhaps twice that.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RocketSurgeon76's post
16-08-2015, 08:19 PM
RE: Black Lives Matter
(16-08-2015 07:53 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Profiling is absolutely designed to catch people committing crimes. Most cops would not think they are racist. Few people, anymore, in the USA would say "I am a racist person". That's the difference between personal bigotry and systemic racism.

The problem is that people in power for decades, prior to now, who really were trying to keep an apartheid-like system of racial superiority going in this country have deliberately set things up so that social decay increased in the ghettos of America, and as a result, poverty got worse and crime increased. But when you get the perception that "that's just the way things are", and especially when you enact a Drug War that acts like the Spanish Inquisition or the Communist Red Scare, paying informants and/or putting low-level users into situations where they must "give us names", it is easy to manufacture cases against people. Like the Witch Trials of old, you really only need to have one citizen (and it can be the same one, if it's a paid "Confidential Informant" snitch, whom they have "over a barrel" because of a drug habit they feed or charges they hold over his/her head in order to get them to say whatever they want said) to point to another citizen or many other citizens, and then professional prosecutors take over and know how to spin things so that they can convict almost anyone. With the help of papers who profit of sensationalist crime news, they can portray anyone so badly that the jury is tainted, even if they wouldn't have convicted the person prior. Then they take you out of your home in the middle of the night, put you in isolation cells, and hold you where you don't have access to witnesses (most of whom are afraid to come to the notice of the officials by testifying in your favor) or materials with which to defend yourself, are assigned a crappy, overworked Public Defender for a lawyer, and are held for months or even years in the county jail while you await your trial. They then overcharge you (one alleged crime can result in five to ten actual charges) and stack up the threat of lengthy incarceration--30 years or more--if you force them to take you to trial, so even innocent people will take a "plea bargain" (or "plead out", as we say), just to get out of that awful jail and avoid decades of imprisonment. Once you're in the system with a felony, you're a "cash cow" they can pick up and charge at any time they need to "close out a case", knowing that if you go to trial then, they can tell the jury all about your past conviction(s), and the jurors will likely convict, so you'll plead out again. The situation is made worse, in terms of jury convictions, if you belong to a group that suffers common bigotry.

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/u...042903.pdf

The highly-conservative estimates by commissioned studies show that that roughly 4-6% of the people incarcerated in America are wrongly so... I read an article, which I cannot now find, by the US Department of Justice that put the number possibly between 8% and 12% (I say 10% for a nice round figure).

http://www.thenation.com/article/how-man...nt-prison/

Another good paper on the size of, problems associated with, and causes of wrongful incarceration:
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/ronhuff.htm

And if you want to know about the corruption from America's "war on drugs" and "tough on crime" policies, about the Prison Industrial Complex's corruption of the system, and/or how systemic racism and racial profiling work, you have Google. There are probably a million articles on those subjects.

The war on drugs is disgusting. Kids are being set up for a fall on a daily basis. They are being set up from both sides of the war. Entrapment is a normal daily occurrence. The drug issue sorely needs to be looked at again and different ways of dealing with it need to be found. Countless people's lives are being ruined - for something that is never going to work.

If only people would focus on the issues instead of race. Sadcryface

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dom's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: