Black Lives Matter
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17-08-2015, 06:43 AM
RE: Black Lives Matter
Can_of_Beans - I was trying to remember that article, "I, Racist", to post last night. Great writing, and a great explanation of the issues at stake, and why the BLM slogan is necessary. I'm going to bookmark it so I can use it when white people start with the "but but but all lives matter" stuff.

MrKrispy - It's not a matter of "white guilt", it's a matter of acknowledging that there is and has been a problem, a systematic one, that needs to be addressed in this country. Whites didn't march alongside Dr.King out of "white guilt" but because they recognized there was a widespread and systematic problem, and that there was a moral imperative to help do something about it.

JDog - "Suicide" in a jail cell is one of the methods used by crooked cops, especially in the deep South, to silence a potentially-troublesome witness. Cells are set up so that suicide in there is all but impossible. It's pretty clear from her last recorded phone call from that jail, just before she "killed herself" (heavy irony in quotes), that she was not suicidal but in fact expecting to be let out when her family got there with the bail money.

One example:
http://news.yahoo.com/florida-investigat...NlYwNzcg--

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17-08-2015, 06:48 AM
RE: Black Lives Matter
(17-08-2015 06:43 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Can_of_Beans - I was trying to remember that article, "I, Racist", to post last night. Great writing, and a great explanation of the issues at stake, and why the BLM slogan is necessary. I'm going to bookmark it so I can use it when white people start with the "but but but all lives matter" stuff.

MrKrispy - It's not a matter of "white guilt", it's a matter of acknowledging that there is and has been a problem, a systematic one, that needs to be addressed in this country. Whites didn't march alongside Dr.King out of "white guilt" but because they recognized there was a widespread and systematic problem, and that there was a moral imperative to help do something about it.

JDog - "Suicide" in a jail cell is one of the methods used by crooked cops, especially in the deep South, to silence a potentially-troublesome witness. Cells are set up so that suicide in there is all but impossible. It's pretty clear from her last recorded phone call from that jail, just before she "killed herself" (heavy irony in quotes), that she was not suicidal but in fact expecting to be let out when her family got there with the bail money.

One example:
http://news.yahoo.com/florida-investigat...NlYwNzcg--

She told Intake workers she attempted suicide once before, autopsy proved suicide and security footage shows no one around her cell around the time she killed herself. Outstanding evidence of her killing herself and none otherwise. Until there is evidence that it was foul play, she killed herself. If we stop looking at evidence and believe in conspiracy theories we might as well believe in God and the
Bible too.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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17-08-2015, 06:55 AM
Black Lives Matter
(17-08-2015 05:07 AM)JDog554 Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 03:49 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Basically the point boils down to this. The line of division isn't drawn by those proclaiming "black lives matter" but by those who proclaim "all lives matter." Because it is precisely that last slogan that the BLM crowd is advocating for, but is not the reality in the world we live in today. Today, black lives are not equivalent in the eyes of the generic american. People don't react every time a black man/woman/kid is killed in the same way as when a white man/woman/kid is. The media doesn't respond the same way.

So the BLM movement is really about saying that Black Lives Matter TOO and that black lives should be given equal treatment in society and in the media.

When people say "all lives matter" all they are doing is dismissing the BLM crowd. A black man/woman/kid is killed in an egregious way (Sandra Bland, Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice, etc) and the BLM crowd proclaims that "Black Lives Matter" and then the ALM crowd dismisses it by saying that "All lives matter" when what they really mean is that they don't care about the black lives being taken.

Meanwhile, Zachary Hammond is shot in the back by a cop over pot, and the ALM crowd is suspiciously silent while the BLM crowd have been vocal about this unnecessary tragedy too. The ALM crowd doesn't really care about all lives, they care about specific lives. Specifically, people they consider worthy of being mourned and everyone else should be ignored.

Sandra Bland committed suicide, not killed by police. She really should not even be in the group. She chose to take her own life. Except for the Zach Hammond thing though I agree with you. Zach Hammond has not gotten nearly as much attention as the others.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a separate post from the above reply. I really like this photo and quote from a Chief of Police in Texas

Quote:I don’t want to put down law enforcement all together, but … there’s so many things that are happening these days that sometimes we can’t stand behind officers that do bad things. However, the community and the nation can’t condemn every single officer based on the actions of a few.

[Image: 2B5F850100000578-3198836-image-a-22_1439592753845.jpg]

I feel like you've ignored quite literally everything else I said.

The point of the BLM slogan is that both of those cops lives' should matter, but society hasn't treated black lives (or minorities more generally) the same as they've treated white lives, probably ever in this country.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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17-08-2015, 07:02 AM
RE: Black Lives Matter
Workers can put whatever they want on a form; we have no actual evidence that she claimed she was suicidal. If you ever say you're suicidal, you're placed on Suicide Watch and not even given clothing that could be used for that purpose.

They don't put trash bag liners in cells. Only the guards have liners in their trash cans. Most cells don't even have trash cans.

And she didn't run a stop sign; according to his dash cam, he did a u-turn when she drove past him and then he tailgated her, so she moved over into the other lane to let him by. He then pulled her over for not signalling when she changed lanes. You can hear them discussing it in the video.

Oh, and the autopsy only found "injuries consistent with suicide", which would have been the same whether she was forced to hang herself or if she did it on her own. I like how they mention the marijuana in her system, which lasts for 3 days or more after smoking, even though they acknowledge that she didn't use it while in the cell, but they still try to make it sound like weed had altered her mood into a potentially-suicidal state... cuz, you know, that's what it does?!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-08-2015, 07:05 AM
RE: Black Lives Matter
(17-08-2015 06:55 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(17-08-2015 05:07 AM)JDog554 Wrote:  Sandra Bland committed suicide, not killed by police. She really should not even be in the group. She chose to take her own life. Except for the Zach Hammond thing though I agree with you. Zach Hammond has not gotten nearly as much attention as the others.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a separate post from the above reply. I really like this photo and quote from a Chief of Police in Texas


[Image: 2B5F850100000578-3198836-image-a-22_1439592753845.jpg]

I feel like you've ignored quite literally everything else I said.

The point of the BLM slogan is that both of those cops lives' should matter, but society hasn't treated black lives (or minorities more generally) the same as they've treated white lives, probably ever in this country.

Everything below the line was not a reply or a counter to your post, it was a separate post, I just did not want to make two separate posts and spam the thread.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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17-08-2015, 07:06 AM (This post was last modified: 17-08-2015 07:14 AM by TheBeardedDude.)
Black Lives Matter
And even still, let's say Sandra Bland really did commit suicide, this is apparently a common thing, why are we only now hearing about these occurrences? Why was she ever arrested in the first place?

What was it? A week later or so that Kindra Darnell Chapman died in a jail cell in Alabama? Do you think we'd have ever heard about her if not for Sandra Bland?

I don't know about you, but when something smells like bullshit, I tend to think it's bullshit. And with Sandra Bland (a woman who should never have been arrested because a fucking crooked cop doesn't know how to do his job), something smells like bullshit.

Do you think the cop that killed Samuel Dubose would have been indicted if not for the body camera? Because his story (and the story of the other officers at the scene) didn't match the footage. Traditionally, do you think cops that have killed people like that have gotten the benefit of the doubt and gotten away scot-free or do you think our cops have always been indicted for murdering citizens?

Then you have the pool party in Texas where cops show up and start slamming black teens into the ground.

Compare any of these with stories you hear about white guys doing the same thing. Like Joseph Parker in Massachusetts just a few days ago attacks seven cops. He is still alive (as he should be), but do you think that outcome would be the same of it were a black man? What if it were a black man in say, Missouri? (We know how that worked out, presuming Michael Brown actually did attack the cop)

Open carry activists walk into grocery stores and subways and fucking airports strapped with rifles. You don't see any (or many at all) minorities doing that. And when a black teenager carries a fake gun, the cops kill him within seconds of encountering him. See the double standard yet?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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17-08-2015, 07:19 AM
RE: Black Lives Matter
(17-08-2015 07:06 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And even still, let's say Sandra Bland really did commit suicide, this is apparently a common thing, why are we only now hearing about these occurrences? Why was she ever arrested in the first place?

What was it? A week later or so that Kindra Darnell Chapman died in a jail cell in Alabama? Do you think we'd have ever heard about her if not for Sandra Bland?

I don't know about you, but when something smells like bullshit, I tend to think it's bullshit. And with Sandra Bland (a woman who should never have been arrested because a fucking crooked cop doesn't know how to do his job), something smells like bullshit.

Do you think the cop that killed Samuel Dubose would have been indicted if not for the body camera? Because his story (and the story of the other officers at the scene) didn't match the footage. Traditionally, do you think cops that have killed people like that have gotten the benefit of the doubt and gotten away scot-free or do you think our cops have always been indicted for murdering citizens?

Then you have the pool party in Texas where cops show up and start slamming black teens into the ground.

Compare any of these with stories you hear about white guys doing the same thing. Like Joseph Parker in Massachusetts just a few days ago attacks seven cops. He is still alive (as he should be), but do you think that outcome would be the same of it were a black man? What if it were a black man in say, Missouri? (We know how that worked out, presuming Michael Brown actually did attack the cop)

Open carry activists walk into grocery stores and subways and fucking airports strapped with rifles. You don't see any (or many at all) minorities doing that. And when a black teenager carries a fake gun, the cops kill him within seconds of encountering him. See the double standard yet?

Just want to point out one of BLM's demands straight from their website.

"•We will call on the office of US attorney general Eric Holder to release the names of all officers involved in killing black people within the last five years, both while on patrol and in custody, so they can be brought to justice – if they haven’t already."

Gives no mention if the killed person was a criminal. So even if the black person was a murderer BLM wants justice for them. As long as they are black, they should not be killed, even if they do something to deserve I like shoot at a cop.

This is what I have trouble with. I'm all for equality and getting rid of bad cops but when they take it this far, their cause is not helping anything.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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17-08-2015, 07:28 AM
Black Lives Matter
(17-08-2015 07:19 AM)JDog554 Wrote:  
(17-08-2015 07:06 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And even still, let's say Sandra Bland really did commit suicide, this is apparently a common thing, why are we only now hearing about these occurrences? Why was she ever arrested in the first place?

What was it? A week later or so that Kindra Darnell Chapman died in a jail cell in Alabama? Do you think we'd have ever heard about her if not for Sandra Bland?

I don't know about you, but when something smells like bullshit, I tend to think it's bullshit. And with Sandra Bland (a woman who should never have been arrested because a fucking crooked cop doesn't know how to do his job), something smells like bullshit.

Do you think the cop that killed Samuel Dubose would have been indicted if not for the body camera? Because his story (and the story of the other officers at the scene) didn't match the footage. Traditionally, do you think cops that have killed people like that have gotten the benefit of the doubt and gotten away scot-free or do you think our cops have always been indicted for murdering citizens?

Then you have the pool party in Texas where cops show up and start slamming black teens into the ground.

Compare any of these with stories you hear about white guys doing the same thing. Like Joseph Parker in Massachusetts just a few days ago attacks seven cops. He is still alive (as he should be), but do you think that outcome would be the same of it were a black man? What if it were a black man in say, Missouri? (We know how that worked out, presuming Michael Brown actually did attack the cop)

Open carry activists walk into grocery stores and subways and fucking airports strapped with rifles. You don't see any (or many at all) minorities doing that. And when a black teenager carries a fake gun, the cops kill him within seconds of encountering him. See the double standard yet?

Just want to point out one of BLM's demands straight from their website.

"•We will call on the office of US attorney general Eric Holder to release the names of all officers involved in killing black people within the last five years, both while on patrol and in custody, so they can be brought to justice – if they haven’t already."

Gives no mention if the killed person was a criminal. So even if the black person was a murderer BLM wants justice for them. As long as they are black, they should not be killed, even if they do something to deserve I like shoot at a cop.

This is what I have trouble with. I'm all for equality and getting rid of bad cops but when they take it this far, their cause is not helping anything.

What exactly do you think is implied in that request? That asking that public employees who have killed citizens be named? You realize that they did NOT say that all of these people had to be innocent or had to not be criminals. That's a straw man version of the request.

The point of that request? When you have black people being killed (like say in Samuel Dubose's case) and no one ever even so much as bats an eye because the cop's story is taken as gospel, you've got a pervasive and systemic problem. How do you fight a systemic problem? You look under every rock to shed light on the bullshit wherever you find it.

Does that mean that all of the officers unjustifiably killed those people? (Let's assume the officer's safety or the safety of other pedestrians was at risk) No, and that's not what he BLM crowd is saying (that's the straw man you've built). What they are saying is that the officers in the justified killings will be vindicated, but the other unjustified killings shouldn't be lumped in and the officers allowed to get away scot-free.

If you'd stop making straw men out of the BLM movement, you might find that you don't have trouble with what they actually want. But as long as you're debating something they aren't saying, you will.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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17-08-2015, 07:31 AM
RE: Black Lives Matter
Ooooooooooooooh I see, it's okay to kill criminals.

Got it.

For the government to have the power to end a human life, they must be

1) Arrested while presumed innocent.
2) Taken to trial, given full Due Process (including presumption of innocence).
3) Duly convicted by a jury of their peers and sentenced.
4) Given full appellate Due Process.
5) Executed in medically overseen conditions upon a signed Governor's Order.

Or you can just have a cop decide to kill them, if they're "Criminals". That works, too.

The question is not, "were they criminals?", but "was the cop given no option but to defend his own life?"

The police always claim justification, and we have seen in numerous cases where it has been proven that they are coached in what to say to give the appearance of a need for self-defense, that they are willing to forge such a case, and that other officers in the "blue wall of silence" will perjure themselves to defend their brethren. This isn't a conspiracy theory, this is how it works in the real world.

How many times have we seen a policeman that was proved (usually by someone outside the agency recording them when they don't know it) to be lying after a killing, to justify his need to defend himself? Basically, unless we have it on camera, we just believe the cops, whatever they say... and when we DO catch them lying, unquestionably and on video doing the opposite of what they claimed in their report, we write it off as "oh, that was just one bad apple".

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17-08-2015, 07:35 AM
Black Lives Matter
(17-08-2015 07:31 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Ooooooooooooooh I see, it's okay to kill criminals.

Got it.

For the government to have the power to end a human life, they must be

1) Arrested while presumed innocent.
2) Taken to trial, given full Due Process (including presumption of innocence).
3) Duly convicted by a jury of their peers and sentenced.
4) Given full appellate Due Process.
5) Executed in medically overseen conditions upon a signed Governor's Order.

Or you can just have a cop decide to kill them, if they're "Criminals". That works, too.

The question is not, "were they criminals?", but "was the cop given no option but to defend his own life?"

The police always claim justification, and we have seen in numerous cases where it has been proven that they are coached in what to say to give the appearance of a need for self-defense, that they are willing to forge such a case, and that other officers in the "blue wall of silence" will perjure themselves to defend their brethren. This isn't a conspiracy theory, this is how it works in the real world.

How many times have we seen a policeman that was proved (usually by someone outside the agency recording them when they don't know it) to be lying after a killing, to justify his need to defend himself? Basically, unless we have it on camera, we just believe the cops, whatever they say... and when we DO catch them lying, unquestionably and on video doing the opposite of what they claimed in their report, we write it off as "oh, that was just one bad apple".

Precisely. Being a criminal (we'll ignore serial killers and those like the men committing mass shootings) isn't a one-way ticket that automatically means the cops can kill you if they deem it so.

The guns and less-lethal weapons the cops carry are for self-defense and defense of innocents. That doesn't mean that when someone runs, they should be shot. (Like the college football player in Florida who had a car accident only to have weapons pointed at him when asking for help. He flees for his life because of the earned distrust of the cops, and they kill him)

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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