"Black People can never be Racist."
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13-02-2017, 08:06 PM
"Black People can never be Racist."
So I was on FB the other day when I saw one of my friends posted this.

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I responded with





Which apernlty didn't sit well with a young Lady we will call Mrs. C.

Mrs. C.: no they cannot. a race that is unilaterally subjugated is incapable. also consider trying to garner superiority in an environment of institutionalized racism. just not possible.

NX: Perhaps some are holding onto a concept of what racism is, is different than others, but, by definition, any race can be racist towards others. Racism, by definition, is to believe one's race is superior to another. Really no other requirements. Institutions don't need to be involved for that to be possible. As long as one believes their race is somehow better than another, that's racism.

Mrs. C: the basic requirement is the ability to feel superiority. again with institionalized racism and years of oppression it's not possible. prejudice yes, racism, no.

Common: Rasict: A person who shows OR feels discrimination OR prejudice against people of other races, who believes that a particular race is superior to another.

Being prejudice and be racist are not mutually exclusive. It also isn't soulie for a different race people can feel that their own race is "inferior". (I think of the comedy skit from Chappell show with the Blind KKK leader.) The term Race is also only skin deep. The amount of melanin in a person's skin doesn't affect a person's thought capability. That comes from cultural upbringing. To say a person is immune from being capable of belittling or thinking one race holds a high ground soulie because of their skin shade is not only silly it's racist.

Mrs. C.: incapable, not immune

Racism

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent diffrences among the vious human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that particular racial group is inferiour to others.

2. A policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such doctrine; discrimination.

3. Hatered of intolerance of another race or other races.


Mrs. C. : by the second definition alone it is just not possible for POC to be racist. again, produce yes, without a doubt, racist no. the very fabric of this country is designed to keep POC from ever feeling superior. there is always that law, rule or white person that tries reminds us that we are, in always will be, inferior. and when their verbal reminders are ignored, there's cultural upbringing or not, there's always "stop and frisk", racial profiling or travel bans. we do not hold that kind of power, so we will do not have the authority to exert the superiority that comes with true, unadulterated, racism.

Common: Dictionary definitions are not a check list. If you choose to ignore the other usages of the word then it is easy to see where we have the miss communication.

Your a human just like I am, capable of the same flaws and misconceptions. If at any moment you think that simply because the color of the skin (This goes for everyone) that anyone that doesn't have the matching skin tone, or ancestral lineage makes you better. Be that threw physical or mental supiourty that is racist.

If my comments are being ignored because you're making snap judgements about me based on my skin. That is racist.

Now if the conversation is being directed more to how society seems to favor and discriminate minority groups we may have more points of agreement.

But the point I was addressing was statements like. "I can't be racist because my race is impervious, incapable, to it. But everyone else is, and can." Your inflating yourself to being Superior to Therefore being racist.

Mrs. C. : i havent ignored a single thing you wrote. I feel accused of simplifying something far more complex than a definition in a dictionary. and I'm about done with oppressors telling me I'm not oppressed and to suck it up and I'm the offender and God forbid I ever treat you how I've been treated (two wrongs and all that bs). the abuser blaming the abused. classic. listen, I do not refute that Black people can be as cruel and vicious as we have been treated. I don't refute that black people can be the same assholes white people can be but black people cannot be racist. period. flaws and all, if you really want to have an open and honest conversation with black people or any person of color, white people need to accept their part in the oppression, yes oppression of blacks followed by systematic institionalized racism that makes it impossible for backs to be racist. I stand by that. I live it every day..even the most well meaning white person can send a conversation back by their refusal to see the whole picture. not just the parts that vindicate them or demand that we gently handle their feelings. you're so excited to point a finger to deflect you miss the whole point. NOW I'm going to ignore the rest of your posts...

So am I wrong here? Do People of Color have some sort of anti-racism gene?

I felt like the only one going off topic was Mrs. C. But it be nice to get outsiders opinions?

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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13-02-2017, 08:15 PM
RE: "Black People can never be Racist."
Her mistake is that she says "by the second definition alone" to mean it somehow subsumes the first. She should have had said "by the second definition only"

#sigh
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13-02-2017, 10:01 PM
RE: "Black People can never be Racist."
Racism -- the misguided perception that there's a difference between people with dark, light and various shades of yellow or red skin.

We all bleed red, and our shit's all brown , and it stinks equally.




Nobody's immune.

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13-02-2017, 10:31 PM
RE: "Black People can never be Racist."
@Commonsensei

All of the above. Racism has multiple definitions and not all of them can be used at the same time.

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13-02-2017, 11:50 PM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2017 12:02 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: "Black People can never be Racist."
Dear Mrs. C.,

I see you have placed Sensei on ignore. I will not poke my nose in wherever that is, but if I may, I will post this here. I hope you stop by some day and see it. Since he cannot do so, I will attempt to address the major points you made, in your final paragraph. I do apologize for the length. It is a complex and touchy issue in many ways, and I wanted to get it right.


Mrs. C. Wrote:Mrs. C. : i havent ignored a single thing you wrote.

Clearly, you ignored everything Sensei wrote, as he pointed out to you that racism is three things, not just one, according to the dictionary, and that anyone who believes their race is superior to others is subject to one of those definitions. Likewise, anyone who makes judgments of other races based on their race alone is subject. Black people are neither incapable or immune to those definitions.

Mrs. C. Wrote:I feel accused of simplifying something far more complex than a definition in a dictionary. and I'm about done with oppressors telling me I'm not oppressed and to suck it up and I'm the offender and God forbid I ever treat you how I've been treated (two wrongs and all that bs). the abuser blaming the abused. classic.

No, you're accused of flat-out ignoring two of the main definitions of "racism" in order to focus on the third one, which suits your narrative. If you wanted to talk about the effects of institutional racism, great. But the moment you called him one of your "oppressors", you violated the main definition of a racist, which he tried to point out to you. Congratulations, Mrs. C., you proved that black people can be racist!

Mrs. C. Wrote:listen, I do not refute that Black people can be as cruel and vicious as we have been treated. I don't refute that black people can be the same assholes white people can be but black people cannot be racist. period.

What does being an asshole to others have to do with anything? Only if you are being an asshole because you believe your race is superior and theirs inferior would being an asshole, or cruel and vicious, have any bearing on this conversation. So yes, if a black person is being cruel or vicious because of the skin color of another, or because they believe black people (however suppressed/oppressed) are the superior race, then they are by any definition racists. And assholes.

Mrs. C. Wrote:flaws and all, if you really want to have an open and honest conversation with black people or any person of color, white people need to accept their part in the oppression, yes oppression of blacks followed by systematic institionalized racism that makes it impossible for backs to be racist. I stand by that.

While I concur that white culture desperately needs to understand the problems from the history of White Supremacy in this country and the continuing damage being done by structural racism, I would point out to you that failure to understand the difference between overt, personal racism and structural racism is one of the main problems with white people understanding what you're complaining about. When you tell white people they're contributing to the oppression of black people, they say, "Fuck you man, I'm not a racist!"

And 95% of the time, they're being honest when they say that: they don't give a shit if their daughter dates a black or brown guy... they don't treat their friends any differently depending on their tan... they don't treat blacks they meet as threats nor do they treat them with "kid gloves"... they don't think of black or brown people any differently than they think of themselves... and they strongly believe in Rugged American Individualism™ (under which ideals things like race--including their own--and racism are considered silly group-identity bullshit) that says "stand on your own two feet, no matter where you came from".

So when you say "white people need to ________", you need to understand that the average white person doesn't even recognize the concept of "identifying as white". They just think of themselves as a person... and that includes how they think of you, person. They find it as odd to talk about a person differently because they have light or dark skin as you would find it odd to talk bad about a brunette because she isn't blonde. At most, they usually have a national-cultural (local) heritage, such as Italian, or Irish, and many combinations among them.

The irony is, the ability to ignore the history of suppression and pretend that we are all individuals is one of the perks of white privilege. If you weren't so busy being a racist fuck and treating all white people as your enemy... or as the same... then you'd do a better job of communicating something that white culture desperately needs to understand better.


Mrs. C. Wrote:I live it every day..even the most well meaning white person can send a conversation back by their refusal to see the whole picture. not just the parts that vindicate them or demand that we gently handle their feelings. you're so excited to point a finger to deflect you miss the whole point. NOW I'm going to ignore the rest of your posts...

I don't recall anyone but you, Mrs. C., refusing to see the "whole picture". You're the one ignoring that there are two other definitions of racism, both of which are more common than the one you're clinging to in order to promote your (well-justified) agenda of getting African-Americans out of the ramifications/legacy of white supremacy of the past, have the culture and nation recognize what the true effects were and how they must be remedied, and take steps to remedy what was done-- something akin to the "Truth and Reconciliation" process that South Africa went through, I would say... with some economic restructuring to make up for the damage we did to predominantly-black neighborhoods and rural areas by focusing on white areas for infrastructure, jobs, availability of loans, and education over those years.

I also don't recall anyone asking that their feelings be protected. I only saw someone explaining to you that you don't get to dictate what words mean in the English language... right before you exploded in a racist-as-fuck diatribte.

No one pointed any fingers except you, either, Mrs. C. They simply didn't buy into your attempt to promote your agenda by limiting the use of words and making silly assertions like "black people can't be racist", prior to immediately assuming that he disregarded or disbelieved what happen(-ed)(-s) to the African-American community, historically and presently, because he is white and he objected to your tactic. That makes you a racist.

Perhaps you do not believe the black race is superior to the white race. I should hope not. I certainly do not believe the white race is superior... or even that the white or black "race" really is a thing, biologically speaking, other than a way to describe one gene-pool out of many. Many!

These gene pools, by the way, are mostly African... there are more genetic varieties, and differences, among Africans than there is difference between whites and most of the African gene pool. Most of the non-African world is simply not very diverse, genetically speaking, because we're all descended from the single group/nation/pool that left via what is now Egypt to colonize the rest of the globe. So skin color is an astoundingly stupid metric by which to subdivide the human species.

As a biologist, I see humans as they actually are, and it's much easier to see that the metric is a stupid one... and that makes it even more tragic when I observe, just as objectively, that there is a measurable and continuing damage done to Africa and its heirs, the heirs of that European imperialism (the slave trade was global; the USA only got about 10% of total slaves stolen from Africa), and that there was NOT ONE GODDAMNED GOOD REASON FOR IT.

Some vague Bible verses about how to own slaves from other nations (in Leviticus 25:44-46) got twisted into a concept of race that really didn't exist before about 1600, and an economic empire based on stolen labor and wealth began... and continues, in many ways. If you are to be angry at anyone, be angry at Christians who felt their faith justified their greed and cruelty, and then went on to defend it as an idea at gunpoint, "brother against brother", in the American Civil War. Why anyone with black or brown skin can be a Christian without seeing what it really is, I have never understood.

In any case, your anger at the white establishment and its continuing devastation is quite justified. Just don't confuse that with white people, individually.

Because that would make you a racist.

Anyway, please consider the idea that white poor people, and those white people who were artificially catapulted into the Middle Class by those very programs you decry as racist... only to be dropped back into poverty by the gutting of those advantageous programs, now that the establishment has moved on from the idea (except for the Prison Industrial Complex, the school-to-prison pipelines, etc., which is now affecting poor whites at ever-higher numbers... the PIC is going/growing strong, sadly) that racism is a necessary thing to their empires. It is not, and so we stop promoting one group, the upper-poor whites, and suppressing the blacks as we have done since the end of overt slavery, both newly devastating that group and continuing to ignore the devastation in the other group.

We are your allies. Please, I encourage you to see the world from a more objective biological sense, to recognize race as a mostly social construct, but to accept that people really can and do recognize and respect the ethnic identity of your heritage, and all that that means (in full agreement with 99% of your words/ideas), while we yet reject the idea that any people are different, unequal, or even genuinely distinguishable based upon skin. I beg you to realize that recognition that you are my equal means anything I can do you can do as well, including be racist, and that as my equal the wrongs done to your people are wrongs done against all humanity. They are literally Crimes Against Humanity, and if we stop worrying about perfecting our labels and building defensive fortifications and "secret passcodes" of the right way to use language, we will all come to realize that the alliance benefits all of us equally. As it should be. And it is to our detriment to ignore the natural alliance.

I am Acadien (Cajun) French. We came as poor coastal lowland farmers from the west of France to settle in what is now Nova Scotia, then called Acadia, about the same time as the Jamestown guys did, south of us. We just wanted to be free of the system of Nobility that still was running strong at the turn of the 17th century. We refused to ally as the British and French empires clashed over that part of this continent. Because of Brit harbor requirements, we were thrown from our homes violently, herded onto ships that were so awful a great many of us died-- many while waiting in harbors that refused to take the disease-riddled ships in-- and scattered across the world, later coming to Louisiana. For a great many decades of American history, "Coonass" (what they called us) was a derogatory way to describe us-- we have since adopted it to refer to ourselves. If you'd like to know more, I invite you to learn about the "Great Upheval", or what we call La Grand Dérangement.

We have never supported empire. We have never supported racism. The Klan hates us as much as it hates you, I'm sure. This is true for many other sub-groups of white ethnicity here in the USA, of non-Anglo-German stock.

If you let go of your anger and bitterness, for a moment, however justified they are, I think you will see that not all whites are the same, or even from a uniform culture, and that a LARGE NUMBER of us are more inclined to your side than the vocal defenders of the old system would prefer you to think is the "white" position.

Next time you go to use the term "white people____________", I want you to realize that you may be about to commit the very thing of which you are accusing a white person, today. Many of us are mixed-race to various degrees (and to various races!), and many of us come from lineages of European who were discriminated against by other Euros, before and during the years the "Let's get the brown people from Africa to be slaves, because Bible!" idea cropped up, and are "mixed" among white sub-ethnicities. Many of us have a "family history-story" that involves some sort of mistreatment of mankind as unequals because _________ (reasons). Race is one of those reacons, and we know it, and we recognize its effects. We're fighting as hard as we can against racism and the old system; we loathe what it represents as much as you do. When you attack the problem, righteous as you are in doing so, it may do more harm than good if you continue in the hostile defensive manner of always looking for who is attacking, who is The Enemy™, when it may simply be a friend trying to establish communication.

I humbly suggest you look again at what he said, and point to where anything he said was a denial or denigration of your overall position, except on the point of whether you (or anyone) could limit "racism" to one of its three major definitions, in order to exclude people from the ability to fit the other two and thus preclude other people from using the term at all, when trying to describe racists and/or racial supremacists who happen to have dark skin.

I recommend you give him another shot. He is your equal and ally. Of that, I have no doubt.

I will close with the words of a great hero of mine, successor to another great hero of mine... "What is the blood on the tracks?" Like him, I believe that we need to address the social issues we have as a society created, first and foremost.





[Edited to rearrange word-order in Dr. Tyson's quote so it fits what he actually said.]

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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14-02-2017, 12:02 AM
RE: "Black People can never be Racist."
(13-02-2017 10:01 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  We all bleed red, and our shit's all brown , and it stinks equally.

Unless you suffer form porphyria, then your shit is a delightful purple. Blink

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14-02-2017, 01:48 AM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2017 01:53 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: "Black People can never be Racist."
Everyone can be racist going by definitions you have provided, excluding the second one. It's however not impossible in principle that minorities could be racist according to definition 2, it's just not happening now as it is not black minority in power.

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that particular racial group is inferior to others.

2. A policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such doctrine; discrimination.

3. Hatred of intolerance of another race or other races.


Mrs. C assertion that blacks couldn't be racist I find curious and idiotic. She made martyrs from them - always oppressed but never capable of oppressing others. Guess it is good for one ego to be part of such noble group.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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14-02-2017, 02:03 AM
RE: "Black People can never be Racist."
I'd argue that that definition 2 COULD happen, to degrees, even in a minority/oppressed race.

Two ways this could happen.

1) A black police officer who is racist towards blacks. This can happen when he has absorbed stereotypes and attitudes prevalent in the larger society. He might think the perceived negative qualities are societal rather than genetic, and he might think himself an exception to the rule, or part of a relatively small segment that can rise above it. Or perhaps he doesn't REALLY believe it, but feels he needs to be harsher with blacks than with whites in order to fit in with the law enforcement community. But regardless of whatever's going on in his head, he might (for example) come down far more harshly on rowdy black children than white children on the grounds that he perceives them as being more unlawful despite engage in exactly the same behavior. This fully meets the example of a person of color being racist, in the sense of engaging in institutionalized oppression, despite being a member of the class oppressed by the very racism he's engaged in..

2) Racism directed against even-more-disadvantaged races. As a hypothetical example, someone who's black assuming that all Hispanics are undocumented and haranguing them for "taking our jobs".
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14-02-2017, 02:54 AM
RE: "Black People can never be Racist."
I'm Caucasian. The vast majority of assholes I've encountered in my life have also been Caucasian. I hate my fellow white people, that makes me a racist, and I'm okay with that.

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14-02-2017, 03:27 AM
RE: "Black People can never be Racist."
(14-02-2017 02:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I'm Caucasian. The vast majority of assholes I've encountered in my life have also been Caucasian. I hate my fellow white people, that makes me a racist, and I'm okay with that.

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Not unless you assume, without evidence, that I am an asshole just because I'm Caucasian. You racist fuck. Tongue

What comes to my mind when people say blacks cannot be racist, but only whites, I'm reminded of dozens (and I mean dozens) of conversations I had in prison with what I mentally tagged "black supremacists", men whose words were effectively indistinguishable from what was coming out of their white skinhead equivalents. They had the same stories about "great kingdoms of the past", "we are natural-born Lords/Kings and warriors" (likewise, Aryan is from a Sanskrit word meaning "the lordly people", I believe, containing a linked warrior-tradition), and that race-mixing was The Worst Thing Ever™... aka the enforcement of "racial purity". And so on.

It's one of the reasons Malcolm X "had to die" when he came back from his pilgrimage to tell the Nation of Islam that their nationalism and counter-supremacism had to go because all races were brothers. Yeah, that means he had to go.

These "black supremacist" types have, in effect, been rendered mostly powerless beyond the realm of rhetoric by the system that has (wrongly) kept most African-Americans in poverty-trap conditions and encouraged this backlash... rather like the conditions that prevail in rural America where white supremacists tend to crop up.

They're two sides of one coin, and neither have anything to do with the actual problem, which is a class of people (not a race, even though 99.9% of those members belong/belonged to the European ethnicity due to the effects of Colonialism and the history of Mercantilism/Capitalism) willing to exploit their fellow human beings in any way they can, in service to the pursuit of power and wealth.

Fighting and animosity between racial groups benefits no one but the exploiters. Undecided

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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