"Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
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06-07-2015, 12:53 AM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
(05-07-2015 09:42 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(03-07-2015 09:10 AM)morondog Wrote:  There are many Christians who do not buy the free will argument - see Calvinism. Of course, they have an even deludier delusion to replace it with Smile

But Calvinism is a bit logical considering the book it was derived from. FW smashed into lighter, nicer Jonathan Edwards Theology is really a result of people not liking that they have absolutely no control over their lives. They say on one hand that there is FW and on the next breath say that there is a plan. So which is it? You really can't have both.

It really isn't that logical... See, the freewill argument results when you insist that God is infinitely good, and that good means what it usually means and doesn't have some fucked up meaning of "Good only to the worthy". Therefore all the evil in the world comes from humans.

The anti-freewill argument comes from those who insist that God is all-wise and therefore must know ahead of time what's going to happen. Under those conditions it hardly seems fair that evil shit happens because God could change things to make it not happen. Drop asteroids on rapists or something. Therefore God *desires* the evil shit to happen, and the fact that he's still called *good* is because God moves in Mysterious Ways™.

The "you guys are all fucked in the head" argument comes from those who say "hang on a minute, where the fuck did this God character pop up from?"

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-07-2015, 02:34 AM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
(02-07-2015 08:30 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(02-07-2015 08:11 PM)CleverUsername Wrote:  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jesus eventually appear to Thomas, gave him proof, and then he believed again?

Wonder why he doesn't use that proven method anymore. Consider

I have asked that before and was shocked when it was told to me that it would violate free will. WTF? God didn't seem to give a crap about the free will of the people he appeared to or performed miracles to in the bible.

And then there's this Satan guy who had first hand knowledge of God and was apparently still able to exercise his free will and rebel against him... Consider

"I feel as though the camera is almost a kind of voyeur in Mr. Beans life, and you just watch this bizarre man going about his life in the way that he wants to."

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06-07-2015, 04:13 AM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
(06-07-2015 02:34 AM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  
(02-07-2015 08:30 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  I have asked that before and was shocked when it was told to me that it would violate free will. WTF? God didn't seem to give a crap about the free will of the people he appeared to or performed miracles to in the bible.

And then there's this Satan guy who had first hand knowledge of God and was apparently still able to exercise his free will and rebel against him... Consider

You make one hell of an argument. Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-07-2015, 04:15 AM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
(06-07-2015 04:13 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-07-2015 02:34 AM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  And then there's this Satan guy who had first hand knowledge of God and was apparently still able to exercise his free will and rebel against him... Consider

You make one hell of an argument. Consider

Weeping So, it has come to this...

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-07-2015, 05:32 AM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
(06-07-2015 04:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(06-07-2015 04:13 AM)Chas Wrote:  You make one hell of an argument. Consider

Weeping So, it has come to this...

Big Grin

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-07-2015, 06:21 AM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
(06-07-2015 04:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(06-07-2015 04:13 AM)Chas Wrote:  You make one hell of an argument. Consider

Weeping So, it has come to this...

The devil made him do it.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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06-07-2015, 06:29 AM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
(06-07-2015 06:21 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(06-07-2015 04:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  Weeping So, it has come to this...

The devil made him do it.

I sense a fork in the tale...

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-07-2015, 06:37 AM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
(02-07-2015 07:16 PM)Ted Tucker Wrote:  "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."

This is a perfect candidate for that leprechaun test I was talking about a bit ago. I whipped this up just for the occasion.

[Image: Leprechaun%20faith_zpsggkt2z0h.png]

If I were as ballsy as GoodWithoutGod, I'd get this made as a T-shirt and wear it to Busch Gardens.
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06-07-2015, 06:51 AM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
(06-07-2015 06:29 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(06-07-2015 06:21 AM)unfogged Wrote:  The devil made him do it.

I sense a fork in the tale...

These derailments always make me see red. I try to bring a little light and look at what happens. I'll probably have to hoof it over to another thread.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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06-07-2015, 07:19 AM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
(02-07-2015 07:16 PM)Ted Tucker Wrote:  Oh yes Thomas, he was even given the title or the non-honorific if you will, "Doubting." The most perfect character of all to invent. Yes the most vile of the lot(next to Satan myth I suppose), in all the stories, of all the scriptures.

Much of this seems to a product of your own projections. Thomas is neither rebuked or cursed, nor his doubt admonished. Peter at least provoked Jesus's derision, "get thee behind me satan", while doubting Thomas was greeted with peace be with you. The pharisees were greeted with scorn when they asked Jesus for signs, but not Thomas's doubt.

I guess the question would be is your skepticism one in the spirit of doubting Thomas, or in the spirit of the Pharisees asking to be shown signs. Both of them on the surface are skeptics, one has honest doubts, while the other had something more behind their doubts than that. I guess that's a question everyone must ask themselves.
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