"Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
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06-07-2015, 07:43 AM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
(06-07-2015 07:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I guess the question would be is your skepticism one in the spirit of doubting Thomas, or in the spirit of the Pharisees asking to be shown signs. Both of them on the surface are skeptics, one has honest doubts, while the other had something more behind their doubts than that. I guess that's a question everyone must ask themselves.

Nice Tommy Smile What are dishonest doubters, those who who just doubt 'cos they hate Christians? Yeah, you and your crowd tell yourselves those kind of bedtime stories I guess. God you're an idiot.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-07-2015, 07:55 AM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
(06-07-2015 07:43 AM)morondog Wrote:  Nice Tommy Smile What are dishonest doubters, those who who just doubt 'cos they hate Christians? Yeah, you and your crowd tell yourselves those kind of bedtime stories I guess. God you're an idiot.

Well, clearly if your doubts are a product of your hatred towards christians, those doubts wouldn't be very sincere or honest now would they? Those doubts would likely be a projections of one's resentments, rather than sincerity. Of course I don't think most atheists doubters hate Christians. Insincere doubt and sincere doubt doesn't even have to be a question regarding belief vs unbelief, it could be about any question. Is a creationists doubts about evolution sincere? Are the doubts of Obama birthers sincere? etc..... Perhaps some are, perhaps some aren't.
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06-07-2015, 08:06 AM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
(06-07-2015 07:55 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-07-2015 07:43 AM)morondog Wrote:  Nice Tommy Smile What are dishonest doubters, those who who just doubt 'cos they hate Christians? Yeah, you and your crowd tell yourselves those kind of bedtime stories I guess. God you're an idiot.

Well, clearly if your doubts are a product of your hatred towards christians, those doubts wouldn't be very sincere or honest now would they? Those doubts would likely be a projections of one's resentments, rather than sincerity. Of course I don't think most atheists doubters hate Christians. Insincere doubt and sincere doubt doesn't even have to be a question regarding belief vs unbelief, it could be about any question. Is a creationists doubts about evolution sincere? Are the doubts of Obama birthers sincere? etc..... Perhaps some are, perhaps some aren't.

Oh I see, just throwing it out there huh? Thumbsup Keep going. How's that proof that God exists and gives a shit about you coming?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-07-2015, 08:22 AM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
You know, I've been active in the atheist-type communities for close to 20 years, now, and I've only seen a couple I'd say were of their opinion set out of anger at anything.

Oh, sure, lots of us have bitterness at some of the stuff we were taught to believe, once we look back at the cloud that was over our mind before, from our new perspective in the clear sky of Reason. But it's not anger at God or anything like that.

I'd describe it more as a great sadness, that if we could have fallen for it, with the kind of minds we have, how many more won't have the strength to stop and step into the light? And what darkness will fall on our nation as a result of so many clouded minds? These are thoughts that send any reasoning person into spirals of anger and/or sadness.

We would be unfeeling robots, if it did not. Does that make us "hateful" or "angry at God"? Rubbish! It just means we didn't switch out of all culture when we rejected the primary religious view of this particular culture... and didn't stop paying attention to the damage being done by those faith-traditions.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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06-07-2015, 06:18 PM (This post was last modified: 07-07-2015 04:42 PM by Ted Tucker.)
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
(06-07-2015 07:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-07-2015 07:16 PM)Ted Tucker Wrote:  Oh yes Thomas, he was even given the title or the non-honorific if you will, "Doubting." The most perfect character of all to invent. Yes the most vile of the lot(next to Satan myth I suppose), in all the stories, of all the scriptures.

Much of this seems to a product of your own projections. Thomas is neither rebuked or cursed, nor his doubt admonished. Peter at least provoked Jesus's derision, "get thee behind me satan", while doubting Thomas was greeted with peace be with you. The pharisees were greeted with scorn when they asked Jesus for signs, but not Thomas's doubt.

I guess the question would be is your skepticism one in the spirit of doubting Thomas, or in the spirit of the Pharisees asking to be shown signs. Both of them on the surface are skeptics, one has honest doubts, while the other had something more behind their doubts than that. I guess that's a question everyone must ask themselves.

Yes Tomasia I used some literary embellishment, of the literary embellishment, of Bronze Age stories for which there is no factual evidence. I did this to make a point about how critical thinking is detrimental to a belief system that lacks any emperical evidence. It is the greatest threat to the control that the authority of that belief system has on its followers. I do not hate Christians or anyone else for that matter. If one needs delusion to make themselves happy then fine knock yourself out, Just please don't tell others how they should live their lives. The only thing I truly hate is Blind Faith as defined as belief without evidence.

Peace

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
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07-07-2015, 10:47 AM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
That's just proof that those who wrote the shit knew it was a lie.
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15-10-2015, 08:24 AM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
(06-07-2015 07:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I guess the question would be is your skepticism one in the spirit of doubting Thomas, or in the spirit of the Pharisees asking to be shown signs. Both of them on the surface are skeptics, one has honest doubts, while the other had something more behind their doubts than that. I guess that's a question everyone must ask themselves.

What is wrong with asking for "signs" (another word for "evidence")? That is what everyone does when I tell them about my research. "Signs" are exactly what a god who expects belief should give.
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16-10-2015, 08:59 AM
"Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
I've often asked myself what it would take to convince me, and I've considered everything from a flaming cross in the sky to the "still, small voice " at the back of my head. Then I realized I was taking the wrong approach. If the Christians are right, then I should adopt one of their sayings: I should "Let go and let God." After all, if God is everything he's cracked up to be, he knows better than I do what I would find persuasive. I'm still waiting.
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16-10-2015, 10:24 AM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
(02-07-2015 07:16 PM)Ted Tucker Wrote:  "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."

Oh yes Thomas, he was even given the title or the non-honorific if you will, "Doubting." The most perfect character of all to invent. Yes the most vile of the lot(next to Satan myth I suppose), in all the stories, of all the scriptures. He was guilty of the ultimate sins: Skepticism and Critical Thinking. He actually asked for empirical evidence before believing in something. Oh ye of no faith, you are not blessed. Only those who have pure Faith, who believe without seeing, who believe without evidence, these are the ones that are blessed and will be chosen to be saved.

What a powerful message, don't be a Thomas, don't ever question our authority, as we are the experts, we will tell you what to believe(as we have no real evidence to present). Blind faith is what you must have, this is the ultimate virtue, someone with such pure faith can count on being rewarded in a heaven for ever and ever. I understand why this message has gone such a long way to indoctrinate, keep, and corral the flock through the ages.

"Oh but that story does not make any sense one might reason, I don't understand, how can one claim truth without any real evidence? How does one know that the stories are true? Why has God taken such great care to keep himself hidden, if it so gravely important to believe? Why are there so many different Gods and beliefs? Could god have been man made!? Oh no I am reasoning, some doubt is forming, quick start praying, do anything, talk to a priest, clear those wicked rational thoughts out of my mind, quick quick before doubt takes hold and I weaken my pure faith! Oh no I could burn in hell for all eternity!" I must repent and seek stronger faith, Forgive me oh God for questioning"

Yes you are right I am a Skeptic a "Thomas." My goal is to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible. I am ok with saying I don't know. I am not ok with saying "We don't know therefore God did it." Oh yes my mind is free to reason and discover the True wonders of a Natural World.

It's not only that we can't see, but we can't infer gods logically either. Not without committing errors in reasoning. The only alternative left to us is the imagination. And I've asked repeatedly how I can distinguish "God" from something that is imaginary. Blank out.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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16-10-2015, 05:23 PM
RE: "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
(05-07-2015 09:42 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(03-07-2015 09:10 AM)morondog Wrote:  There are many Christians who do not buy the free will argument - see Calvinism. Of course, they have an even deludier delusion to replace it with Smile

But Calvinism is a bit logical considering the book it was derived from. FW smashed into lighter, nicer Jonathan Edwards Theology is really a result of people not liking that they have absolutely no control over their lives. They say on one hand that there is FW and on the next breath say that there is a plan. So which is it? You really can't have both.

In 4-valued logic you can. Tongue

#sigh
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