Blind Faith is a Sickness
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28-08-2013, 10:13 PM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2013 10:17 PM by Cake.)
RE: Blind Faith is a Sickness
(26-08-2013 04:25 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Having said that, what is meant by the term blind faith is a kind of brainwashing that throws out all reason in order to be immersed in some compelling and fatuous notion. I admit that there are some that call themselves Christian which are in this sorry state. Usually these are pseudo-Christian cults or evangelicals. The orthodox Christian faith is nothing like this however and has always promoted the use of reason in all fields of human endeavor. Truth is truth whether it is derived from the physical senses or by divine revelation which comes by the scripture and the Church. The trouble is that the physical senses can be deceived. The physical senses are easily manipulated with false data, deceptive arguments, smoke and mirrors. This is why magic shows are so successful because of the extreme vulnerability of the human senses and perceptions to be distorted and twisted.

On the other hand, those who humble themselves and trust in the authority of the Church and its interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, they cannot be deceived because they have built their house on the Rock. Men who trust in the changeable shifting notions of human senses and sciences are building their lives upon the sand. Such men will not endure but will be swept away by all manner of vain and empty notions and precepts to the destruction of their souls.

First off, please please please don't ever refer to Christians you disagree with as being psuedo-christians or otherwise lesser forms of Christians. Frankly, it pisses me off when Christians degrade other beliefs or character when they have no qualms over including them in statistical data showing the superiority of Christianity. Furthermore, they are just as Christian as you are, whether you like that or not. The base requirement of Christianity does not say what one has to believe the actual "teachings" of Christianity are. So stop trying to assert your ideas, founded on faith, trump their ideas, founded on faith, because you think your faith has any more proof behind it than theirs.

Second, addressing the second paragraph here, you again talk as if all of Christianity either follows the same set of beliefs in their church, or that your specific sect of the Christian pie is the one real sect. Again, there is no more validation for your beliefs than any others that are founded on faith. You also assert that having placed trust in this Church will prevent you from being wrong. Now I don't know which way you define church. If you speak of the entirety of Christian people, you run into a big problem. As I've already stated, everyone that says with conviction that they are a Christian is one, whether you like that or not. And even without accounting for extremist groups, different denominations within Christianity have very different beliefs about their God. So then you have the authority of the Church being the general agreement among all of Christianity, which pretty much is non-existent. However, I will assume for now that by Church you mean the authority figures within one body of the Christian belief (please correct me if I'm wrong). If that is the case, then you again run into the issue of almost no agreement on any major moral issues between the different Churches of Christianity and to say your Church is the correct one would be to discredit other Churches that have the same credibility as yours (which in my opinion is none). So now you have various Christian Churches, all disagreeing with each other on major issues. The idea that putting faith in the authority of any one of these will give you the truth to the major moral issues in life presents a contradiction.

Lastly, I understand from the last bit that you think we can't establish good ethical codes for ourselves without being handed down the ideas of what is right and wrong from a group of people that pull their notions of right and wrong from a book written thousands of years ago that has no more credibility than the other books that have and still influence the ideas of other religions. So let me put it very bluntly. I don't need to have been created to value my life, the lives of my family, friends, significant others, animals, plants, people, etc. I don't need to have been created to experience emotions of happiness, sadness, anger, pain, love, and so on. I don't need to have been created to realize that the world is better off if I try my best not to harm people, not to let people harm themselves, and to learn ways of better achieving such goals. And I don't need to believe in the ideas of people that say we need to follow the rules of an ancient book to be good when I can better serve myself, my fellow humans, and all other life by just learning about the world through my senses. There is just one thing left I have to say for now. The teachings of the Church, no matter what definition of church you use, change just like the ideas of those who aren't part of a Church. The only difference is those ideas change much slower than those of us who realize we have made mistakes and go to right them. You are right that the Church is a rock, a rock slowly being shaped by the tides of the earth to conform to what nature wishes.
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29-08-2013, 08:59 AM
RE: Blind Faith is a Sickness
Great job undercutting the arrogance of one individual's mindset!
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03-09-2013, 11:46 PM
RE: Blind Faith is a Sickness
Blind faith is sickness... but it sure is fun!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLNUTKHXuEM
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04-09-2013, 02:54 AM
RE: Blind Faith is a Sickness
(26-08-2013 04:25 AM)excubitor Wrote:  On the other hand, those who humble themselves and trust in the authority of the Church and its interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, they cannot be deceived because they have built their house on the Rock.

You hear that skeptical secularists? Those people, by definition, cannot be deceived!

The Salem Witch trials? - Not deceived.

The Holocaust? - Not deceived.

The Crusades? - Not deceived.

The Inquisition? - Not deceived.

Conquistadors? - Not deceived.

The Catholic Church's pedophile priests? - Not deceived.

The KKK? - Not deceived.

American slavery? - Not deceived.



Sweet holy hell, it looks like we'll need to rewrite every history book to take into account the fact that people who put blind faith in their religion cannot be deceived!


Or, you're full of shit. Drinking Beverage

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05-09-2013, 02:35 AM
RE: Blind Faith is a Sickness
(04-09-2013 02:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(26-08-2013 04:25 AM)excubitor Wrote:  On the other hand, those who humble themselves and trust in the authority of the Church and its interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, they cannot be deceived because they have built their house on the Rock.

You hear that skeptical secularists? Those people, by definition, cannot be deceived!

The Salem Witch trials? - Not deceived.

The Holocaust? - Not deceived.

The Crusades? - Not deceived.

The Inquisition? - Not deceived.

Conquistadors? - Not deceived.

The Catholic Church's pedophile priests? - Not deceived.

The KKK? - Not deceived.

American slavery? - Not deceived.



Sweet holy hell, it looks like we'll need to rewrite every history book to take into account the fact that people who put blind faith in their religion cannot be deceived!


Or, you're full of shit. Drinking Beverage
The Catholic Church is the one true church and has the fulness of Truth. There is no deception or error in its teachings. Various protestant sects and pseudo-Christian cults are obviously deceived. Invariably these outfits when they break off from the Catholic church adopt some kind of deceptive teaching in order to justify their schism.

There may be evil behaviour which exists in the Catholic church, but sin is a different thing to deception. For example, it is the action of evil men, not deception in teaching in the church which causes pedophiles to exist.

I have never argued that there is no deception in religion. What I am saying is that there is no deception in the teachings of the Catholic church and that therefore, whoever bases their life on those teachings of the Catholic church has a sure foundation of belief. They shall not be moved but will endure until the last day to be raised to everlasting life at the side of the saviour Lord Jesus Christ.

Not all religions are true. Logically with various religions with competing ideas they cannot all be true. Either they are all incorrect, or else only one is correct. I testify and my witness is true, that the one true religion of all the ages is the Catholic Church and specifically the great and holy see of Rome.
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05-09-2013, 03:15 AM
RE: Blind Faith is a Sickness
(05-09-2013 02:35 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(04-09-2013 02:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You hear that skeptical secularists? Those people, by definition, cannot be deceived!

The Salem Witch trials? - Not deceived.

The Holocaust? - Not deceived.

The Crusades? - Not deceived.

The Inquisition? - Not deceived.

Conquistadors? - Not deceived.

The Catholic Church's pedophile priests? - Not deceived.

The KKK? - Not deceived.

American slavery? - Not deceived.



Sweet holy hell, it looks like we'll need to rewrite every history book to take into account the fact that people who put blind faith in their religion cannot be deceived!


Or, you're full of shit. Drinking Beverage
The Catholic Church is the one true church and has the fulness of Truth. There is no deception or error in its teachings. Various protestant sects and pseudo-Christian cults are obviously deceived. Invariably these outfits when they break off from the Catholic church adopt some kind of deceptive teaching in order to justify their schism.

There may be evil behaviour which exists in the Catholic church, but sin is a different thing to deception. For example, it is the action of evil men, not deception in teaching in the church which causes pedophiles to exist.

I have never argued that there is no deception in religion. What I am saying is that there is no deception in the teachings of the Catholic church and that therefore, whoever bases their life on those teachings of the Catholic church has a sure foundation of belief. They shall not be moved but will endure until the last day to be raised to everlasting life at the side of the saviour Lord Jesus Christ.

Not all religions are true. Logically with various religions with competing ideas they cannot all be true. Either they are all incorrect, or else only one is correct. I testify and my witness is true, that the one true religion of all the ages is the Catholic Church and specifically the great and holy see of Rome.

Bullshit, and you know it. Squibble and move the goalposts all you want. The teachings are never deceptive or incorrect?

Those fucking communion wafers and fruit juice do not magically change into the literal flesh and blood of a 2000+ year old dead Jewish carpenter. Weeping

What is the basis for Papal infallibility, a church doctrine and teaching that is younger than the invention of the escalator? Laughat

The RC makes up shit to suite their needs just as easily as the Mormons, they've just been doing it far far longer.

Also, did the Catholic Church or it's teaching do anything to prevent the Conquistadors, the Crusades, the Holocaust, the Inquisitions, or slavery? No, I didn't think so; in fact they helped enable all of them to happen. So much for divine truth.

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05-09-2013, 03:19 AM
RE: Blind Faith is a Sickness
(28-08-2013 10:13 PM)Cake Wrote:  First off, please please please don't ever refer to Christians you disagree with as being psuedo-christians or otherwise lesser forms of Christians. Frankly, it pisses me off when Christians degrade other beliefs or character when they have no qualms over including them in statistical data showing the superiority of Christianity. Furthermore, they are just as Christian as you are, whether you like that or not. The base requirement of Christianity does not say what one has to believe the actual "teachings" of Christianity are. So stop trying to assert your ideas, founded on faith, trump their ideas, founded on faith, because you think your faith has any more proof behind it than theirs.
Any individual who is not prepared to say that the beliefs of their religion are absolutely true and superior to the beliefs of the next religion, or sect, really should change their religion to the one which is true. That's what I did. The Catholic church is the ONLY true religion in the world. I am true, right and shine like the new day because I am in agreement with my church and because I live those beliefs each day.

I detest this relativism which you expound here that teaches that all views of what is true are equal. It is an insult to the truth by teaching that error is equal with truth. It also teaches that truth is unimportant and that success in life is just as achievable when motivated by error as it is when motivated by truth.

(28-08-2013 10:13 PM)Cake Wrote:  Second, addressing the second paragraph here, you again talk as if all of Christianity either follows the same set of beliefs in their church, or that your specific sect of the Christian pie is the one real sect. Again, there is no more validation for your beliefs than any others that are founded on faith. You also assert that having placed trust in this Church will prevent you from being wrong. Now I don't know which way you define church. If you speak of the entirety of Christian people, you run into a big problem. As I've already stated, everyone that says with conviction that they are a Christian is one, whether you like that or not. And even without accounting for extremist groups, different denominations within Christianity have very different beliefs about their God. So then you have the authority of the Church being the general agreement among all of Christianity, which pretty much is non-existent. However, I will assume for now that by Church you mean the authority figures within one body of the Christian belief (please correct me if I'm wrong). If that is the case, then you again run into the issue of almost no agreement on any major moral issues between the different Churches of Christianity and to say your Church is the correct one would be to discredit other Churches that have the same credibility as yours (which in my opinion is none). So now you have various Christian Churches, all disagreeing with each other on major issues. The idea that putting faith in the authority of any one of these will give you the truth to the major moral issues in life presents a contradiction.
Surely it is clear that I am talking about the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. I deny that other christian branches have the same authority. Only the Roman Catholic Church was begun by the apostles in the first century. They passed down their authority from one bishop down to the next and the office of St. Peter was passed down from Pope to Pope to this very day. No other Christian church can make this claim. All of these other churches began a thousand or more years after the Roman Catholic Church at the initiative of men who broke away from the Catholic church.
The issue of authority is absolutely critical. Just as we go to a medical doctor who is properly credentialed, so too must we go to a religious doctor who is properly credentialed and who has been given the ticket to teach and practice the Christian religion from the governing body. Most Christians today go to quacks for their religion, choosing medicine which tastes good to them.
True Christians, are true Catholics, who follow the instructions and commands of the bishop.
(28-08-2013 10:13 PM)Cake Wrote:  Lastly, I understand from the last bit that you think we can't establish good ethical codes for ourselves without being handed down the ideas of what is right and wrong from a group of people that pull their notions of right and wrong from a book written thousands of years ago that has no more credibility than the other books that have and still influence the ideas of other religions. So let me put it very bluntly. I don't need to have been created to value my life, the lives of my family, friends, significant others, animals, plants, people, etc. I don't need to have been created to experience emotions of happiness, sadness, anger, pain, love, and so on. I don't need to have been created to realize that the world is better off if I try my best not to harm people, not to let people harm themselves, and to learn ways of better achieving such goals. And I don't need to believe in the ideas of people that say we need to follow the rules of an ancient book to be good when I can better serve myself, my fellow humans, and all other life by just learning about the world through my senses. There is just one thing left I have to say for now. The teachings of the Church, no matter what definition of church you use, change just like the ideas of those who aren't part of a Church. The only difference is those ideas change much slower than those of us who realize we have made mistakes and go to right them. You are right that the Church is a rock, a rock slowly being shaped by the tides of the earth to conform to what nature wishes.
I deny that the teachings of the Catholic church are changeable. They are not. They are solid as rock upon which a great building was constructed and when the wind and waves beat against that house it remained unmoved.
In a sense I agree that every man has a conscience which tells him right from wrong. However the knowledge of what is right and wrong is far more exact and honed in those who have received divine revelation through the church. Those nations who have been largely christian nations have therefore benefited with far more advanced ethics and morality than we observe in nations founded on other religions, or on atheism such as China and Soviet Russia.
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05-09-2013, 04:31 AM
RE: Blind Faith is a Sickness
(05-09-2013 02:35 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(04-09-2013 02:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You hear that skeptical secularists? Those people, by definition, cannot be deceived!

The Salem Witch trials? - Not deceived.

The Holocaust? - Not deceived.

The Crusades? - Not deceived.

The Inquisition? - Not deceived.

Conquistadors? - Not deceived.

The Catholic Church's pedophile priests? - Not deceived.

The KKK? - Not deceived.

American slavery? - Not deceived.



Sweet holy hell, it looks like we'll need to rewrite every history book to take into account the fact that people who put blind faith in their religion cannot be deceived!


Or, you're full of shit. Drinking Beverage
The Catholic Church is the one true church and has the fulness of Truth. There is no deception or error in its teachings. Various protestant sects and pseudo-Christian cults are obviously deceived. Invariably these outfits when they break off from the Catholic church adopt some kind of deceptive teaching in order to justify their schism.

There may be evil behaviour which exists in the Catholic church, but sin is a different thing to deception. For example, it is the action of evil men, not deception in teaching in the church which causes pedophiles to exist.

I have never argued that there is no deception in religion. What I am saying is that there is no deception in the teachings of the Catholic church and that therefore, whoever bases their life on those teachings of the Catholic church has a sure foundation of belief. They shall not be moved but will endure until the last day to be raised to everlasting life at the side of the saviour Lord Jesus Christ.

Not all religions are true. Logically with various religions with competing ideas they cannot all be true. Either they are all incorrect, or else only one is correct. I testify and my witness is true, that the one true religion of all the ages is the Catholic Church and specifically the great and holy see of Rome.

And your evidence is ... ?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-09-2013, 08:54 AM
RE: Blind Faith is a Sickness
(05-09-2013 03:19 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I deny that the teachings of the Catholic church are changeable. They are not. They are solid as rock upon which a great building was constructed and when the wind and waves beat against that house it remained unmoved.

Bull-fucking-shit. The Roman Catholic Church no longer burns people alive as heretics for suggesting that the Earth is not the center of all creation, or that it revolves around the sun. Heliocentrism is no longer a crime, even though it once was. Your church's doctrine changed, your church is not infallible because it was created and is run by fallible humans without any divine intervention; get over it. Drinking Beverage

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05-09-2013, 10:04 AM
RE: Blind Faith is a Sickness
[/quote]
I deny that the teachings of the Catholic church are changeable. They are not. They are solid as rock upon which a great building was constructed and when the wind and waves beat against that house it remained unmoved.
In a sense I agree that every man has a conscience which tells him right from wrong. However the knowledge of what is right and wrong is far more exact and honed in those who have received divine revelation through the church. Those nations who have been largely christian nations have therefore benefited with far more advanced ethics and morality than we observe in nations founded on other religions, or on atheism such as China and Soviet Russia.
[/quote]

I would like the evidence presented also as to what makes that most corrupt business on the globe an unchanging truth and a foundation for morality.

Secondly, the comment on the christian nations of the world could not be more of base and absolutely false. Look at many other threads and videos on this site for some facts on the relationship between how christian a nation is to what we percieve as having good morals and ethics. Google it for that matter and you will see that countries with the overall best ethical and moral conduct of its citizens are the least christian. I grew up in the catholic church and in this mostly "christian country" so please do not feel the need to inform me of the so called outstanding morals and ethics shown by either one.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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