Bohdan2's collected concerns about NDEs and Out of Body Experiences?
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22-01-2017, 08:53 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2017 03:28 AM by DLJ.)
Bohdan2's collected concerns about NDEs and Out of Body Experiences?
Hello everyone!
I have a Christian friend who sent me a boat load of Near Death Experiences, such as Howard Storm, Kenneth Hagin, Ian McCromick, Don Brubaker, and the list goes on. These can be found of this site:
http://www.near-death.com/religion/christianity.html

I did some research on these NDEs, and it seems as though the internet is filled with Christian NDEs, NDEs associated with no religion, or rarely Hindu NDEs. My question is, so many skeptics say that Near Death Experiences are the product of the brain essentially being deprived of oxygen. Then, Hallucinations may occur. Skeptics always also tend to argue that an NDE has to do with one's religious/cultural upbringing. I am wondering then, why is it that you will never find any 21st century records of any Islamic NDEs? You will find Islamic people who have them and report the typical white light, happiness, or even sometimes hell. However, you will never hear of an Islamic person seeing Muhammad, but many NDEs around the world will have Jesus. Why do you think that is? Finally, do you at all believe in NDEs?
Thanks,
Bohdan
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22-01-2017, 09:02 PM
RE: Question about Near Death Experiences and Islam?
http://www.near-death.com/religion/islam.html

If you prefer a more in-depth approach, try

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/675...0Kreps.pdf

(PDF format)

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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22-01-2017, 09:05 PM
RE: Question about Near Death Experiences and Islam?
It's easy to experience a "NDE".


Move to Akron Ohio....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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22-01-2017, 09:12 PM
RE: Question about Near Death Experiences and Islam?
Don't forget the rat NDE's.
Rat-Jebus. Here we come. Halleluia.
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots...xperiences

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-01-2017, 09:12 PM
RE: Question about Near Death Experiences and Islam?
Umm, I'm not that familiar with Islam. What's their afterlife scenario? I don't think it involves Muhammad, does it?

If we came from dust, then why is there still dust?
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22-01-2017, 09:13 PM (This post was last modified: 22-01-2017 09:24 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: Question about Near Death Experiences and Islam?
(22-01-2017 08:53 PM)Bohdan2 Wrote:  Hello everyone!
I have a Christian friend who sent me a boat load of Near Death Experiences, such as Howard Storm, Kenneth Hagin, Ian McCromick, Don Brubaker, and the list goes on. These can be found of this site:
http://www.near-death.com/religion/christianity.html

I did some research on these NDEs, and it seems as though the internet is filled with Christian NDEs, NDEs associated with no religion, or rarely Hindu NDEs. My question is, so many skeptics say that Near Death Experiences are the product of the brain essentially being deprived of oxygen. Then, Hallucinations may occur. Skeptics always also tend to argue that an NDE has to do with one's religious/cultural upbringing. I am wondering then, why is it that you will never find any 21st century records of any Islamic NDEs? You will find Islamic people who have them and report the typical white light, happiness, or even sometimes hell. However, you will never hear of an Islamic person seeing Muhammad, but many NDEs around the world will have Jesus. Why do you think that is? Finally, do you at all believe in NDEs?
Thanks,
Bohdan

Here you go.

I certainly believe they're experiencing something. Oxygen deprivation is one possible explanation, along with dissociation and the affects of various endorphins. We know these things occur under conditions typically found when someone almost dies, and for them NOT to occur near death would itself constitute a deviation from reality as we know it. And given that they occur, it would be a great surprise to me if people inclined to believe that God helps them find their car keys would not interpret such an experience through their god-goggles as well. Hell, it would probably convince a lot of less credulous people too. For this NOT to occur would be a great surprise, given what we know about psychology.

Are there any genuinely supernatural NDE's floating around there? That is, beyond the expected baseline (that we can't really quantify) of people having NDE's just as a consequence of oxygen dep, trauma, cultural baggage, etc, are there additional people who are experiencing a genuine reveal of a god, afterlife, or other supernatural phenomenon?

Can't say. No way to distinguish them from the baseline. But if forced to bet one way or another, I'd say no, it's just the baseline. Because the phenomenon already has a completely natural explanation and Occam's Razor suggests not to go any further than that, and because the people touting these NDEs seem to be spending zero effort sorting out the natural NDEs before trumpeting the lot to the world as supernatural. By and large I've found that betting against that sort of reasoning process is a safe bet.

EDIT: Also, at least a few NDEs out there are outright lies rather than genuine experiences, because the person wanted money or attention or just felt it was obligated. Alex Malarkey is a good example.
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22-01-2017, 11:13 PM
RE: Question about Near Death Experiences and Islam?
The operative term is NEAR death experiences. These are not death experiences. Inherently, they cannot be, given that people don't come back from the dead. These are what happens when the brain is in a disordered / stressed state which often precedes death.

Fairly extensive effort has been made to verify scientifically that the early out-of-body phase where people claim to be hovering and looking down on the doctors working to revive them, etc., occurs when there is no EEG activity. This is hard to do, for obvious reasons. First, only a minority of people who are revived from near-death report the experiences at all. Secondly, an even smaller subset of people are hooked up to an EEG at the time, nor is that a priority when you're attempting to restart heart and respiration. Thirdly, NDEs seem to be like dreams in that they are very vivid at the time but some of the detail is lost unless the person is interviewed and lucid enough to recount it fairly soon after. This requires labor-intensive trained follow-up to document effectively.

Still, it's been attempted, most notably in a multi-year UK study if I recall correctly, and the results were inconclusive at best. Signs were placed atop light fixtures and so forth, out of sight of people in the room but with the hope was that the hovering "spirit" would see and remember the distinctive messages printed there. Also in some cases where there was audio or video of the revival attempt it was hoped that the patient would be able to relate things said or done by the attending staff at a time when the EEG had flatlined. These studies did not document anything that would lead us to believe that NDE experiences were occurring after the EEG flatlined. Therefore, the probability is that they are a form of what I would call, for lack of a better term, vivid dreaming or hallucinating.

Another problem that's been noted with NDEs that is often overlooked, is that, so to speak, "the well has been poisoned" ever since the general public became aware of popularized NDE accounts. As soon as you know about NDEs and what they are "supposed" to consist of, it acts as a suggestion similar to how a hypnotist will tell you that after they release / awaken you, you'll respond to some sound or key word in a certain way. Of course we can't know that this is the case with all NDEs, but it certainly is possible that this reinforces the uniformity of the content of the experiences in a person who is particularly suggestible and vulnerable.
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23-01-2017, 12:13 AM
RE: Question about Near Death Experiences and Islam?
(22-01-2017 11:13 PM)mordant Wrote:  people claim to be hovering and looking down on the doctors working to revive them, etc.,

They're bullshit artists. There's nothin'.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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23-01-2017, 08:12 AM
RE: Question about Near Death Experiences and Islam?
While I have no doubt that the majority of people who say they've experienced NDEs are telling the truth, I also have no doubt that what they experienced was entirely biological, based in their own brains.

Funnily enough, the two most famous cases of NDE (at least, those who wrote books about them) were found to be fraudulent. The first was from the wonderfully-named Alex Malarkey who wrote The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven. Turns out he made the whole thing up. Source: The boy who didn't come back from heaven: inside a bestseller's 'deception'

The second was by a neurosurgeon named Dr Eben Alexander who wrote Proof of Heaven. Turns out Dr Alexander was not exactly what he purported to be. Source: The Prophet

If you have time and are interested, there's a great discussion on an Intelligence Squared debate called Death is Not Final. One of my favourite smart people, Sean Carroll, is featured. It's nearly 2 hours long so requires a time commitment but, IMO, worth the time spent.



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23-01-2017, 10:48 AM
RE: Question about Near Death Experiences and Islam?
(23-01-2017 12:13 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(22-01-2017 11:13 PM)mordant Wrote:  people claim to be hovering and looking down on the doctors working to revive them, etc.,
They're bullshit artists. There's nothin'.
Some are. Most, I am convinced, are simply engaging in the same general kind of confirmation bias as theists by misinterpreting and misattributing things to very real personal subjective experiences. Like another poster I have little problem believing the experiences are (usually mostly*) real, I just also believe there are entirely sufficient naturalistic explanations for them, and non-corporeal consciousness is not remotely required for those explanations.

* As Banjo points out, there are some who make it up; there are others who embellish, often with breathless encouragement of others who believe NDEs "prove" an afterlife. However, I see no reason to think that most who report NDEs didn't have some sort of personal subjective experience that seems very real and compelling to them, that is biological in nature and influenced by cultural conditioning and expectations. Both religious ones, and the fact that by now most people have read NDE accounts and know what general features they are "supposed" to contain.
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