Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
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17-04-2013, 08:00 AM
Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
I'm looking for a book recommendation:

1. I totally believe in evolution, adaptation and speciation

2. I'm aware that we can see microevolution now in nature and in labs

3. I'm looking for a recommended paper or book on macro-evolution

4. I'm utterly not interested in any book or paper whose main tenet is "we assume small changes over time added up to macroevolution" ... really? If it's a proven fact and not a conjecture I'm interested in empirical evidence more than assumptions.

5. A component of macroevolution is the ascendancy of ancillary organs, etc. I'm likewise uninterested in any text whose MAIN thrust is "we can see macroevolution" in the fossil record and "look at all these transitional forms" because we cannot see them in the fossil record. I know about archaeopteryx and flying reptiles, etc. I also know darn well there are no fossils of any kind that demonstrate any evidence of half-formed appendages. A small bone is a small bone, not an incomplete bone. A small appendage is a small appendage, not a vestigial appendage IMHO.

6. I guess I'm looking for statistical analysis, DNA evidence, and well-reasoned conjecture more so than baloney Paleontology and philosophical diatribes from Hitchens and Dawkins.

Please don't try to "prove" Evolution to me on this thread. You all appeal to authority many times, go ahead and give me a book(s) written by a real PhD in biology, DNA research, etc. and appeal again--I will read it in full if it is a science text and not more of your philosophy.

Thanks!
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17-04-2013, 08:09 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
You can't observe macroevolution. Neither can we. It simply takes too long to be observed, like watching a star go through all its stages or watching a glacier overtake a plain. The little changes add up to a large change because there's no reason to assume they don't. Does that mean we never see large-scale change? Of course not -- you yourself went from being a single cell to an organism made up of many organs and trillions of cells in an observable time period, but even that happened in tiny increments.

So the upshot is that you're not likely to get a response, because macro-evolution is generally assumed from patterns that we actually can observe. There are books that explore the transition from one species to another, from very ancient creatures to modern creatures, but if you're critical of macro-evolution then you can always find "gaps" in between each step that feel to you to be too far apart. There are uncountable steps in between one species and another -- each individual organism down the line adds a small bit to the transition -- so it's simply impossible to track the change from one species to another, and the change would be so gradual that you wouldn't actually see it as "change" until it had made a leap that one might call a "gap". Sorry to break it to you.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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17-04-2013, 08:09 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Here you go, big guy.

tao te ching

Read up. There'll be a test later. Smartass

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17-04-2013, 08:20 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(17-04-2013 08:09 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Here you go, big guy.

tao te ching

Read up. There'll be a test later. Smartass

I hear all the answers are "I Heart Gwynnies"

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17-04-2013, 08:59 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(17-04-2013 08:20 AM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  
(17-04-2013 08:09 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Here you go, big guy.

tao te ching

Read up. There'll be a test later. Smartass

I hear all the answers are "I Heart Gwynnies"

Gold Star. Go to the head of the class. Smartass

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17-04-2013, 09:08 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Please Jesus,
There are a few books that might fit your criteria:
1. Relics of Eden: The Powerful Evidence of Evolution in Human DNA, by Daniel J. Fairbanks
2. Genetics: The continuity of Life, by Daniel J. Fairbanks and Ralph Andersen
3. Evolution, by Douglas Futuyama (this is a textbook)

I've read all three and can vouch for the authors in terms of scholarship and the material might be exactly what you are looking for. Let me know what you think.

Doc
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17-04-2013, 09:18 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus



Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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17-04-2013, 09:22 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
And if a paleontologist were to just tell you how you fuck up your assumptions? It can't be an appeal to authority if a scientist shows you how wrong you are.

(demonstrable via the questions you asked in your post)

Evolve
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17-04-2013, 10:40 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Instead of sticking fingers in your ears and flatly declaring, "FOSSILS DON'T SHOW EVOLUTION, FOSSILS DON'T SHOW EVOLUTION!!!!", perhaps you should take the time to study paleontology first before discounting an entire field of study and the work of some fifty thousand scientists over the last two hundred years, just because they challenge a detail of your world view. I suggest starting with a book on invertebrate paleontology. For instance, Invertebrate Paleontology by Easton, or Invertebrate Paleontology by Twenhofel & Shrock, or some such. Maybe even audit Historical Geology 101 at your local community college?


Nah. That would involve learning.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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17-04-2013, 10:48 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Quote:You can't observe macroevolution. Neither can we. It simply takes too long to be observed, like watching a star go through all its stages or watching a glacier overtake a plain. The little changes add up to a large change because there's no reason to assume they don't. Does that mean we never see large-scale change? Of course not -- you yourself went from being a single cell to an organism made up of many organs and trillions of cells in an observable time period, but even that happened in tiny increments.
I asked for books, not more inductive reasoning, but I appreciate your effort and so will reply. There's every reason to disbelieve macroevolution, especially if single animal gestation is your empirical evidence, because every cell in my body and yours contains the same genetic information, and macroevolution requires dynamic, mass-scale change including survivable, beneficial and heritable animal traits. As a friend told me the other day, "I work in computer programming and libraries, and when genetic mapping is more sophisticated 20 years on, Evolution will become passé."

Quote:So the upshot is that you're not likely to get a response, because macro-evolution is generally assumed from patterns that we actually can observe.
And God is generally assumed by Theists from patterns we can observe, and millions of people disbelieve macroevolution from those same patterns, so there! I want the same EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE y'all demand for God for macroevolution. Is that unreasonable? Not skeptical enough for you? Why do y'all persist with telling me "there's things we don't know in science including empirical evidence for macroevolution but our assumptions are more reasoned than yours because we have a naturalist's skeptical view of the supernatural?" How bloody big should Hubble tell us the universe is before you agree with Shakespeare, Horatio?
Quote:There are books that explore the transition from one species to another, from very ancient creatures to modern creatures, but if you're critical of macro-evolution then you can always find "gaps" in between each step that feel to you to be too far apart.
Are you really telling me we have fossilized vestigial, ancillary and nascent, new organs? And bird fossils with half-formed wings and so on? Really?!
Quote:There are uncountable steps in between one species and another
I'm trying to count more than ZERO. Do you have more than ZERO of these uncountable, ineffable, assumed steps?!
Quote: -- each individual organism down the line adds a small bit to the transition
It needs to add large bits, buoyancy or muscular limbs, sexual reproduction, excretion, skin transpiration, etc. between land and water or vice versa or it DIES fast
Quote: -- so it's simply impossible to track the change from one species to another, and the change would be so gradual that you wouldn't actually see it as "change" until it had made a leap that one might call a "gap". Sorry to break it to you.
Then I'm done and I don't need to read evolution books. Tell me I'm wrong and I'll read them. I might skip what you said here and read one anyway to hear it from the horse's mouth! Surely this CANNOT be what thinking scientists believe about macroevolution or they'd all reject it!
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