Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
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17-05-2013, 04:43 PM (This post was last modified: 17-05-2013 04:48 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
It's called deny everything, reassert "proof", win, repeat.

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17-05-2013, 04:50 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Yes and the funny thing is that people who do this think that it will actually change someone's mind on this board, which is named The Thinking Atheist, meaning that we (a) are mostly atheists, and (b) are thinking and so value logic. This is one place where one doesn't just make assertions without backing them up. Gotta be on your logical game here, which is the main thing I like about this board.

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17-05-2013, 04:56 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(14-05-2013 07:55 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  No, honestly, not really. Even Ostrich wings have been shown to have a use. There are NO vestigial wings in the record. There are NO vestigial organs or ancilliary organs (arguably) on anyone or anything anywhere anywhen. A baby bird's wing becomes and adult, functional wing, just like human testes become fully functional (usually) after the onset of puberty...

The term vestigial organ is often poorly defined, most commonly because someone has chosen a poor source to define the term. The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) defines vestigial organs as organs or structures remaining or surviving in a degenerate, atrophied, or imperfect condition or form. This is the accepted biological definition used in the theory of evolution.

Not just the Kiwi's "wings" but ... mole rat's eyes...
In the 4th century BC, Aristotle was one of the earliest writers to comment, in his History of Animals, on the vestigial eyes of moles, calling them "stunted in development".

Even humans have vestigial organs...
In plant-eating vertebrates, the appendix is much larger and its main function is to help digest a largely herbivorous diet. The human appendix is a small pouch attached to the large intestine where it joins the small intestine and does not directly assist digestion. Biologists believe it is the remains of a vestigial organ left behind from a plant-eating ancestor.

The thing is, some animals have vestigial organs while some do not... I had wisdom teeth on the upper jaw but none on the lower jaw. Some of my friends have a full sets of choppers, while others have no wisdom teeth at all; it's kind of like your example of the whale. Once land-dwelling creatures evolved, there were some mammals that moved back into the water. Biologists estimate that this happened about 50 million years ago, and that this mammal was the ancestor of the modern whale. Shit takes time.

Despite the apparent uselessness, evolution left traces of hind legs behind, and these vestigial limbs can still be seen in the modern whale. There are many cases where whales have been found in the wild with rudimentary hind limbs and this has been found in baleen whales, humpback whales, and in many specimens of sperm whales. Most of these examples are of whales that had only leg bones, but there were some that included feet with complete digits. It was reported recently that whales and hippos were distantly related.

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17-05-2013, 06:08 PM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2013 02:06 PM by JAH.)
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
What about the coccyx, vestigial tail bone on humans. Go ahead and break it, I dare you.

Why do theists think they can just make up stuff and get away with it.
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20-05-2013, 12:34 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
I'm unsure where to begin. It's my intent to have a reasonable discussion and again it's ad homs and "look what pj does" not "okay, pj, I'll try to answer your questions."

Quote:you're aware that wings didn't evolve to be wings right? they evolved from arms, so "half a wing" is just a deformed arm.

And animals have forelimbs (arms) and other animals have wings. Which have the inbetween items?

Quote:Actually that's a point that creationists miss many times, not everything is at its peak of complexity just because we're in the present, many things that are "irreducibly complex" could've been even more complex before (a "reducibly" complexity) and had seen its complexity reduced since then.

I understand. When I say irreducible complexity, I'm not talking about structures now in existence but the incredible amount of steps that had to happen between changes in the past--changes not accompanied by any empirical evidence of slow, evolved, rather than rapid changes.

Again, it's not just wings that evolve to enable flight. But if it's only wings that need to evolve, there is a lack of evidence for the steps, 1,000, 100,000, or however many, between wingless and winged.

I think the thread is done because I've gotten back:

*You don't understand/you're willfully ignorant

*There are only a few fossils preserved, so even though we have millions of wingless and millions of winged fossils, and none between the two... "just so"

*Etc.
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20-05-2013, 02:52 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
PJ, it is quite obvious that you haven't read the books that have been recommended to you. I know that b/c you keep parroting the creationist arguments about complexity, intermediate stages and vestigial organs. If you had read 1 or a couple of those books you'd have at your fingertips the exact answers you keep posting in this thread. I am sorry, the stupid lies with you. (yes that might be an ad hom but at this point I just don't give a crap since you have refused to bring even the minimum of intellectual honesty to the table)
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20-05-2013, 05:35 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
PleaseJesus, you made a comment long ago about the lack of vestigial parts. I have a good heavy hammer (I will not use the one with the serrated head, I am blood adverse) I will break your coccyx. Then you tell me how much you like your vestige of your primate forebears.
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21-05-2013, 12:32 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Quote:Of course you can't. That statement alone PROVES you actually understand NOTHING about Evolution.
In the infinitesimally small time frame, you DO see exactly what you would expect to see, and what is predicted by the theory. Bacteria becoming resistant to one or another antibiotic. Responding to their environment, and adapting. Being selected by the trait(s) that better enable it to survive.

In the time the Earth has existed, humans have existed .003 percent of the time, that's .00003 of the time the Earth has exited. In one infinitesimally small human lifetime, you would probably not even "expect" to see the changes you DO see. Age of the earth is 4.54×10^9, Homo sapiens about 160,000 years.
160,000/4,540,000,000=3.52422907×10^-5 = 0.00003

On a clock if all of the time of the Earth were compressed into 24 hours, all of the human historical period would be in 1 second to midnight. You would "expect" to see nothing. So knock off that macro/micro shit they duped you with.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-petrone...75989.html

Hi BB, what you wrote is correct if there are only two or three species on Earth. However, there are hundreds of millions of species on Earth now, so yes, I do seek the anomalies that tell us macro-changes are occuring now in any of those untold millions of species.

Thanks.
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21-05-2013, 12:34 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
There are several muscles that attach to the tailbone, actually four of them, and these muscles assist standing, bowel control and help create a good base for the pelvis.

Rather than break the coccyx, recognize that it could not be surgically removed without the kind of complications that would ensue from removing a femur or the skull bones.
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21-05-2013, 12:36 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
All,

I do apologize for not being more clear and concise. Let me restate one of my issues with evolution making large changes, even over small increments and much time:

The laws of physics dictate what size of animal and what size of wings allow for flight. Are there fossils of animals with fully developed wings that we may calculate could neither fly nor glide successfully?

In other words, not random changes, but changes in evolution directed by stimuli, should still produce wings too small for flight and wings too large for flight if those fossils are preserved for us today. Yes? No?

Thank you.
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