Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
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22-05-2013, 12:32 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Quote:You won't find evolutionary steps without some kind of utility because such an specimen would die quite easily, and there wouldn't be enough specimens to fossilize.

Can we go beyond your quote to then say, "Evolution only leads to steps of utility"? Would you stand on that firmly?

Quote:You seem to be stuck with the idea of a mechanical function to every part of the body, as a wheel for a car, that's not how organisms work, a half formed wing is just an arm with feathers, and an arm is just a weird looking leg, there's no intent for those things, the organism just use them because they're there, and if it happens to help them survive, then when they reproduce the thing appears in their offspring, and continue mutating and at some point the offspring find a new use.

I hear you and understand you. I have this concern, however. You are saying that beings survived with intermediate stages between wingless and winged because they found utility and/or survivability. Where are these intermediate fossils in the record?

Quote:Look at the archaeopteryx, it looks like a retarded gay raptor, but the thing use his deformed arms to glide because it could. And now all the birds just mock from the sky to the extinct normal raptor bigots.

Great point.
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22-05-2013, 12:43 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
PJ, stop posting until you've read "why evolution is true". Just simply stop posting and actually read the book you asked for.
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22-05-2013, 12:46 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(22-05-2013 12:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You won't find evolutionary steps without some kind of utility because such an specimen would die quite easily, and there wouldn't be enough specimens to fossilize.

Can we go beyond your quote to then say, "Evolution only leads to steps of utility"? Would you stand on that firmly?

Not that firmly, it need more umph... something like: Natural selection favours changes that improve survivability and reproduction.

Quote:You seem to be stuck with the idea of a mechanical function to every part of the body, as a wheel for a car, that's not how organisms work, a half formed wing is just an arm with feathers, and an arm is just a weird looking leg, there's no intent for those things, the organism just use them because they're there, and if it happens to help them survive, then when they reproduce the thing appears in their offspring, and continue mutating and at some point the offspring find a new use.

I hear you and understand you. I have this concern, however. You are saying that beings survived with intermediate stages between wingless and winged because they found utility and/or survivability. Where are these intermediate fossils in the record?

There're quite a few, the archaeopteryx is one of them, there're more but I'm no expert on fossil records, I'm sure google will provide better information if you ask it Wink

Quote:Look at the archaeopteryx, it looks like a retarded gay raptor, but the thing use his deformed arms to glide because it could. And now all the birds just mock from the sky to the extinct normal raptor bigots.

Great point.
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22-05-2013, 01:57 PM (This post was last modified: 22-05-2013 02:22 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(22-05-2013 12:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:You won't find evolutionary steps without some kind of utility because such an specimen would die quite easily, and there wouldn't be enough specimens to fossilize.

Can we go beyond your quote to then say, "Evolution only leads to steps of utility"? Would you stand on that firmly?

Quote:You seem to be stuck with the idea of a mechanical function to every part of the body, as a wheel for a car, that's not how organisms work, a half formed wing is just an arm with feathers, and an arm is just a weird looking leg, there's no intent for those things, the organism just use them because they're there, and if it happens to help them survive, then when they reproduce the thing appears in their offspring, and continue mutating and at some point the offspring find a new use.

I hear you and understand you. I have this concern, however. You are saying that beings survived with intermediate stages between wingless and winged because they found utility and/or survivability. Where are these intermediate fossils in the record?

Quote:Look at the archaeopteryx, it looks like a retarded gay raptor, but the thing use his deformed arms to glide because it could. And now all the birds just mock from the sky to the extinct normal raptor bigots.

Great point.

You're still going on about this?

Okay. I'll do this. I'll try to find all the fossils leading from proto-feathered dinosaurs to birds.

Additionally the animals didn't decide that their feathers might be fun for flying with. It occurred gradually, as each generation had small differences that eventually lead to flight.

Juravenator
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...tarkae.JPG
Jinfengopteryx
http://i.imgur.com/EHDGcFC.jpg
Pedopenna
http://i.imgur.com/CoQ3oCH.png
Anchiornis
http://archosaurmusings.files.wordpress....iornis.jpg
Archaeopteryx
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/birds/archie2.jpg
Confuciusornis
http://english.cas.cn/Ne/CASE/201303/W02...079931.jpg
Eoalulavis
http://www.natgeocreative.com/comp/RF4/513/1189329.jpg
Ichthyornis
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...s_yale.JPG

There are many more fossils in the transition between these organisms but I've simply become a bit lazy. However here is a list of 36 fossils with feathers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feathered_dinosaur

I wonder how many specimens it will take to show you evolution did indeed happen.

Either God created the world in such a way that all the evidence in the world points to evolution, or evolution is simply a fact of life.

As the years go by, the more evidence for evolution piles onto the mountain of proof.

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22-05-2013, 02:25 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
I looked at the clade on Wikipedia and understand there may not be direct, smoking gun connections in evolution but I looked at all the photos online you posted and don't see "it".

I also don't understand why your post isn't a complete contradiction against nach's post. One of you says, "They didn't decide their feathers might be fun for flying... this happened gradually." The other, "these [gradual] changes were enhancing survivability."

Again, I understand there may not be what people used to think of as "direct descent" but you want me to believe there were 32 feathered species until they could fly... and that having forelimbs that were like wings without flight was a positive towards survival? What am I missing?
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22-05-2013, 02:26 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(22-05-2013 01:57 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(22-05-2013 12:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Can we go beyond your quote to then say, "Evolution only leads to steps of utility"? Would you stand on that firmly?


I hear you and understand you. I have this concern, however. You are saying that beings survived with intermediate stages between wingless and winged because they found utility and/or survivability. Where are these intermediate fossils in the record?


Great point.

You're still going on about this?

Okay. I'll do this. I'll try to find all the fossils leading from proto-feathered dinosaurs to birds.

Additionally the animals didn't decide that their feathers might be fun for flying with. It occurred gradually, as each generation had small differences that eventually lead to flight.

Juravenator
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...tarkae.JPG
Jinfengopteryx
http://i.imgur.com/EHDGcFC.jpg
Pedopenna
http://i.imgur.com/CoQ3oCH.png
Anchiornis
http://archosaurmusings.files.wordpress....iornis.jpg
Archaeopteryx
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/birds/archie2.jpg
Confuciusornis
http://english.cas.cn/Ne/CASE/201303/W02...079931.jpg
Eoalulavis
http://www.natgeocreative.com/comp/RF4/513/1189329.jpg
Ichthyornis
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...s_yale.JPG

There are many more fossils in the transition between these organisms but I've simply become a bit lazy. However here is a list of 36 fossils with feathers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feathered_dinosaur

I wonder how many specimens it will take to show you evolution did indeed happen.

Either God created the world in such a way that all the evidence in the world points to evolution, or evolution is simply a fact of life.

As the years go by, the more evidence for evolution piles onto the mountain of proof.

you'll never get those wasted minutes of your life back No

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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22-05-2013, 02:44 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(22-05-2013 02:25 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I looked at the clade on Wikipedia and understand there may not be direct, smoking gun connections in evolution but I looked at all the photos online you posted and don't see "it".

I also don't understand why your post isn't a complete contradiction against nach's post. One of you says, "They didn't decide their feathers might be fun for flying... this happened gradually." The other, "these [gradual] changes were enhancing survivability."

Again, I understand there may not be what people used to think of as "direct descent" but you want me to believe there were 32 feathered species until they could fly... and that having forelimbs that were like wings without flight was a positive towards survival? What am I missing?

No...

Lets rethink this.

It's more like generation after generation of living creatures, branching out into different ways of living. Most dieing out, some surviving, and even fewer still stumbling into something very useful.

Think millions or billions of animals, everyone very slightly different.

You seem to be thinking that 32 distinct species existed rather than a varied gradient of creatures.

Now if you haven't noticed, feathered forelimbs are in modern species more than something to fly with.

They are used for attracting mates, keeping eggs warm, looking bigger than they are to predators, insulation from cold weather, swimming, camouflage, protection from the sun, body temperature regulation, feeling, hearing, and other things I'm sure I missed.

http://askabiologist.asu.edu/content/23-...s-feathers

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22-05-2013, 02:53 PM (This post was last modified: 22-05-2013 02:57 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
To answer your question about the limbs....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19154383

Through analyzing the bones, the have hypothesized that grasping has the features of the flight stroke. So that the dinosaurs would use the their limbs to grasp the prey and bring it in for the killing bite.

One idea was for climbing trees, and then gliding.



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22-05-2013, 02:55 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(22-05-2013 02:25 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I looked at the clade on Wikipedia and understand there may not be direct, smoking gun connections in evolution but I looked at all the photos online you posted and don't see "it".

I also don't understand why your post isn't a complete contradiction against nach's post. One of you says, "They didn't decide their feathers might be fun for flying... this happened gradually." The other, "these [gradual] changes were enhancing survivability."

Again, I understand there may not be what people used to think of as "direct descent" but you want me to believe there were 32 feathered species until they could fly... and that having forelimbs that were like wings without flight was a positive towards survival? What am I missing?

Again with the car wheels, your fingers aren't just for manipulating tools, they can make a fist, provide pleasure, induce vomit, scratching, stopping something that comes towards you, soften a fall, typing, etc... and all those things are potentially helpful for survivability. So even if you never have to grab anything in your life, it can come in handy to have fingers and that help might help you pass on your genes.

The same goes for wings and feathers and almost every single piece of your body, unlike a machine that usually (exceptions exist of course) every piece performs a single function.

That multi-functionality is what makes things stick for a long time and then developing a completely different function, even if the new one overshadows the previous one; like flight made with the other uses of long deformed feathered arms.

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22-05-2013, 03:19 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Finally found the video explaining the evolution of the flight stroke.




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