Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
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29-05-2013, 06:48 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
This is not for PJ, though he is welcome to read it. But rather for anyone who wants to learn something.

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/...ite-birds/

Dynamic field of study this and since it was brought up here a couple of time figured I'd share this.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-05-2013, 11:05 AM (This post was last modified: 30-05-2013 11:35 AM by fstratzero.)
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(28-05-2013 02:31 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I came up with that one apart from Dr. Behe, actually. I also noticed bombardier beetles have items that come together to make a substance offensive to other creatures, catalyzed into motion by other substances, held in check in their own systems by other substances, etc., etc. You make it sound like Behe invented irreducible complexity when it's an argument about as old as Plato (the Greek, not Dana Plato).

Of course, the Miller and Levine solution clearly befits Occam's razor as the simplest possible explanation, and with the most explanatory power (and empirical observation, not, since it's 100% conjectural) as to how the following evolved to be produced, and at the right locations in complex tissues, and in the right amounts, and under the right ambient condition fast enough to clot some creature before it dies of blood loss:

*a1-antitrypsin
*antithrombin
*plasminogen

QUOTE: "In short, the key to understanding the evolution of blood clotting is to appreciate that the current system did not evolve all at once. Like all biochemical systems, it evolved from genes and proteins that originally served different purposes. The powerful opportunistic pressures of natural selection progressively recruited one gene duplication after another, gradually fashioning a system in which high efficiences of controlled blood clotting made the modern vertebrate circulatory system possible."

Uh-huh. There you have it. There were other purposes for EVERY ASPECT of blood clotting systems, and they were ALWAYS serviceable and assisted the survivability rates of the creatures who carried them over every generation and stage of clotting evolution. ALWAYS. But I have VESTIGIAL parts (as do many creatures) that have NO purposes unlike "pre-blood clotting parts". Uh-huh.

Lets do this.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1891389815

It's almost like you went down this page and presented all of it to us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

A good watch.
http://www.slideshare.net/leafwarbler/csu-fresno

Abstract

The availability of whole genome sequences for a variety of vertebrates is making it possible to reconstruct the step-by-step evolution of complex phenomena like blood coagulation, an event that in mammals involves the interplay of more than two dozen genetically encoded factors. Gene inventories for different organisms are revealing when during vertebrate evolution certain factors first made their appearance or, on occasion, disappeared from some lineages. The whole genome sequence databases of two protochordates and seven non-mammalian vertebrates were examined in search of some 20 genes known to be associated with blood clotting in mammals. No genuine orthologs were found in the protochordate genomes (sea squirt and amphioxus). As for vertebrates, although the jawless fish have genes for generating the thrombin-catalyzed conversion of fibrinogen to fibrin, they lack several clotting factors, including two thought to be essential for the activation of thrombin in mammals. Fish in general lack genes for the “contact factor” proteases, the predecessor forms of which make their first appearance in tetrapods. The full complement of factors known to be operating in humans doesn’t occur until pouched marsupials (opossum), at least one key factor still being absent in egg-laying mammals like platypus.

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30-05-2013, 12:32 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(29-05-2013 05:35 PM)cjs Wrote:  Agreed, Ameron. I've read Jerry Coyne's book Why Evolution Is True twice because it was not easy for me to grasp. I recommended the book to PJ, but 19 pages later, he/she evidently refuses to read it though he/she asked for book recommendations.

I just got that book in. Chaz reccomended it. Haven't started it yet, but I have some vacation time coming. Probably get into it then.
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30-05-2013, 02:10 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Quote:PleaseJesus: This just popped into my head. Again, no offence intended: Just curious. How many books would you guess that you have read? Any kind of book. I can't give you numbers for myself, but my bookshelves are full! I haven't read them all. Some are just sitting there. I may meet them someday, I may not. But I am sure that I have read hundreds! If I included comic books and magazines, newspapers, we would be talking thousands! Let me be frank, here. You seem to see yourself as a teacher. Are you really qualified to teach? What do you know? . . . How many books have you read?

We're completely dissolving here and stuck talking about Earth's and humanity's past when I'd rather talk about its future. I will say this, though, and perhaps we can drop this thread:

*I've repeatedly stated I understand the mechanisms and theory behind things like genetic drift, beneficial mutations, population adaptations, and am a believer in speciation and evolution, however, I see the irreducible complexity between certain changes and across certain clades

*I've repeatedly, therefore, asked for texts beyond the usual (yawn) "we can't really track the changes in empirical evidence, so we can just so safely assume that small changes added to these big changes just so..."

*Only one person recommend books on this thread addressing the genetic mechanisms and the genetic research being down on evolution. I'm in process reading those and other works (secular, not Christian) and will keep you posted.

*I've read a lot of books. "Define a lot, PJ?" When I was little, my parents always said, "Do you want to read this book now or this book?" and never "Do you want to read this book now or watch TV?" My parents literally told me books were my friends. Today, I have a book collection with several hundred rare books that has appeared on TV several times and not on local news programs but on international networks.

*I was placed in a gifted school because I could read at a very early age and with college level comprehension at a grade school age. I read LOTR in two or three days in high school. I read very fast unless I'm savoring a book. My reading tastes include fiction and non-fiction, fantasy, action and suspense, horror, biographies, conspiracy theory, the Bible, etc.

*I once tried to make an estimate of all the books I've read and they number in the thousands. When I was interested in golf as a teen, I read over 100 golf books. In the Holocaust, and I read dozens of books, etc. A lot of books.

*I admit as I get older I find myself reading less and watching TV and films more. As Solomon said, "Much study wearies the body" and "Of the making of many books there's no end".

*As far as teaching, I have taught (paid and pro bono) individuals and groups sports and games including golf, billiards, chess, poker/baccarat/blackjack/odds theory, vocal music, apologetics/Bible/prophecy, resume preparation, financial planning/saving/investing, etc., etc. I like studying how the mind works, how memory works and may be enhanced, and how people learn. I've done seminars on "The Seven Laws of the Learner" and "The 21 Laws of Leadership" and one I created adapting the 21 Laws to "The 21 Laws of Teaching". Etc., etc.
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30-05-2013, 02:17 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
That just makes some of your comments in this thread all the more tragic if true.
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30-05-2013, 03:13 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(30-05-2013 02:10 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:PleaseJesus: This just popped into my head. Again, no offence intended: Just curious. How many books would you guess that you have read? Any kind of book. I can't give you numbers for myself, but my bookshelves are full! I haven't read them all. Some are just sitting there. I may meet them someday, I may not. But I am sure that I have read hundreds! If I included comic books and magazines, newspapers, we would be talking thousands! Let me be frank, here. You seem to see yourself as a teacher. Are you really qualified to teach? What do you know? . . . How many books have you read?

We're completely dissolving here and stuck talking about Earth's and humanity's past when I'd rather talk about its future. I will say this, though, and perhaps we can drop this thread:

*I've repeatedly stated I understand the mechanisms and theory behind things like genetic drift, beneficial mutations, population adaptations, and am a believer in speciation and evolution, however, I see the irreducible complexity between certain changes and across certain clades

*I've repeatedly, therefore, asked for texts beyond the usual (yawn) "we can't really track the changes in empirical evidence, so we can just so safely assume that small changes added to these big changes just so..."

*Only one person recommend books on this thread addressing the genetic mechanisms and the genetic research being down on evolution. I'm in process reading those and other works (secular, not Christian) and will keep you posted.

*I've read a lot of books. "Define a lot, PJ?" When I was little, my parents always said, "Do you want to read this book now or this book?" and never "Do you want to read this book now or watch TV?" My parents literally told me books were my friends. Today, I have a book collection with several hundred rare books that has appeared on TV several times and not on local news programs but on international networks.

*I was placed in a gifted school because I could read at a very early age and with college level comprehension at a grade school age. I read LOTR in two or three days in high school. I read very fast unless I'm savoring a book. My reading tastes include fiction and non-fiction, fantasy, action and suspense, horror, biographies, conspiracy theory, the Bible, etc.

*I once tried to make an estimate of all the books I've read and they number in the thousands. When I was interested in golf as a teen, I read over 100 golf books. In the Holocaust, and I read dozens of books, etc. A lot of books.

*I admit as I get older I find myself reading less and watching TV and films more. As Solomon said, "Much study wearies the body" and "Of the making of many books there's no end".

*As far as teaching, I have taught (paid and pro bono) individuals and groups sports and games including golf, billiards, chess, poker/baccarat/blackjack/odds theory, vocal music, apologetics/Bible/prophecy, resume preparation, financial planning/saving/investing, etc., etc. I like studying how the mind works, how memory works and may be enhanced, and how people learn. I've done seminars on "The Seven Laws of the Learner" and "The 21 Laws of Leadership" and one I created adapting the 21 Laws to "The 21 Laws of Teaching". Etc., etc.

Self absorbed much?

Argument from personal authority gets you no where.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
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30-05-2013, 04:54 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(29-05-2013 12:39 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Oy vey, you're all misunderstanding greatly. If you draw boundaries around plants becoming animals and vice versa, since ALL that would require is many small changes over much time, where else will you draw a line?

I have a line I've drawn that makes sense based on complexity and time.

But this seems to be showing a misunderstanding on your part because you are arguing a strawman. Eukaryotes appear to have diverged into the plant and animal lines, which have further diverged from there. Language is a fair analogy here. Although there is a certain amount of horizontal meme transfer between languages, for the most part the people raised with a language will speak that language in a way that is understandable over many generations. As people groups diverge the language they speak also diverges, so for example we have the Italic family of languages that have diverged from latin relatively recently recently. Although every generation of people understood their parents and their children, the languages have diverged so that italians cannot understand the french, etc. Older divergences show more fundamental differences. Just within the Indo-European group there are languages as divergent as Hindi and Welsh.

What you are asking when you talk about animals turning into plants is "Why don't I see the Indo-European language group diverge and change to become Chinese?". Well, the answer is that the Chinese languages are from a different family - the Sino-Tibetan group and they too have been diverging for quite some time. Although great change can happen over time there are a few fundamental characteristics that make it unlikely one thing will become another thing, and although things will continue to change and diverge there is nothing enabling or forcing one group to rewrite itself to match some other lineage. Convergent evolution means that similar problems may be solved in similar ways, but even when similar solutions are adopted both languages and species stick to a core that they do well and don't somehow adopt the core features of some other linage. Both moths and hummingbirds have adopted similar flying styles for drinking nectar from similar flowers, but a moth won't become a bird and a bird won't become a moth. They solve too many fundamental problems in different ways to one another.

I've mentioned before that it's actually this pattern of commonality that confirms evolution. If commonality was just because of a common designer then we wouldn't see the patterns we see. Particular traits become fundamental to how a whole family of creatures operate and become effectively unchangeable while other less fundamental traits continue to evolve. These patterns of similarities and differences are the difference between accepting a common designer approach and accepting evolution.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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31-05-2013, 08:57 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Interesting article about the evolution of the turtle shell. It lists a transitional species (queue the uneducated objections to perhaps include but now there are two gaps or I don't see the link or isn't god wonderful)

bbc
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31-05-2013, 11:02 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Quote:Self absorbed much?

Argument from personal authority gets you no where.

Um, I was asked a sincere question and gave a sincere answer. I think in your own snide way, you are at least acknolwedging my authority, so thank you.
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31-05-2013, 11:03 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Quote:But this seems to be showing a misunderstanding on your part because you are arguing a strawman. Eukaryotes appear to have diverged into the plant and animal lines, which have further diverged from there.

If you are insistent on this understanding of kinds, are you also saying the Bible authors understood evolution of a billion years ago two millennia before we did?
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