Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
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18-04-2013, 02:14 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(18-04-2013 02:07 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:And you're not a new species. You are Homo sapiens. But you are different than your mother and your father. You are a combination, and a recombination. Mutations, back-mutations, genetic drift, natural selection, punctuated equilibrium, etc. Don't occur on the time scales of single generations.
I'm so tired of this circular garbage, but I'll read some books regardless.

Are you so dense or stubborn you refuse to admit that "punctuated equilibrium" touches on the Cambrian and other explosions including whole realms of species coming in suddenly and NOT over excessive periods of time?

I NEVER said they occur on the time scales of single generations. NEVER. I said that there's a difference between cats breeding to form new cat species (or adaptation or even mutation and allele changes) and cats breeding or adapting or mutating to grow wings and glide or fly over time.

Let's start with "macroevolution" is not seen now and is the assumed vehicle for species change. Be honest, please.

"I'm so tired of this circular garbage, but I'll read some books regardless."

You don't understand systematics vs the reality in nature. Answer that question and I'll explain why you are getting it wrong in your questions.

"Are you so dense or stubborn you refuse to admit that "punctuated equilibrium" touches on the Cambrian and other explosions including whole realms of species coming in suddenly and NOT over excessive periods of time?"

In geologically short instances of time. The Cambrian "Explosion" occurred over tens of millions of years. "Sudden" diversifications in the rock record are typical after mass extinctions and occur over millions to tens of millions of years.

That paleontology textbook will touch on Punc Eq since you don't know what it is, clearly.

"I NEVER said they occur on the time scales of single generations. NEVER. I said that there's a difference between cats breeding to form new cat species (or adaptation or even mutation and allele changes) and cats breeding or adapting or mutating to grow wings and glide or fly over time."

You made the same idiotic statement of a cat not giving birth to a dog. That would be speciation at the timescale of a single generation.

And you clearly have no idea what is meant by mutation in genetics. We're not talking X-men here dude. Read that Evolution textbook.

"Let's start with "macroevolution" is not seen now and is the assumed vehicle for species change. Be honest, please."

If you don't see it, you clearly are not looking, or are blind.

[Image: i-317070f4db90df3b55f8534f268e8dad-tiktaalik_phylo.jpg]

You've got to figure out your misunderstanding of systematics first, before you understand why that image makes no sense to you. (or that you interpret it wrong)

Evolve
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18-04-2013, 02:30 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Mammals only give birth to mammals.
Primates are a class of mammal.

Primates only give birth to primates.
Monkeys are a class of of primates.

Monkeys only give birth to monkeys.
Apes are a class of of monkeys.

Apes only give birth to apes.
Hominids are a class of apes.

Hominids only give birth to hominids.
Humans are a type of hominid.

Humans only give birth to humans.


Dinosaurs didn't turn into birds. Birds are dinosaurs. Apes didn't turn into humans, humans are apes. Eutherians didn't turn into whales, whales are Eutherians.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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19-04-2013, 12:22 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
I'm not here to provide theists with material for their comformation bias. Go do your own research. Evolution, both on the micro and the macro, has been proven to the extend of gravity, the force that keeps your dumbass attached to the fucking planet.

My only suggestion is to avoid any material from the Discover Institute or Answers In Genesis
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19-04-2013, 05:52 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(18-04-2013 07:54 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  If you take my posts at face value, I'm seeking a book(s) (and it sounds like some quality ones have been recommended) that doesn't push the obvious fallacy that small changes that would create a new specie become these gigantic, complex genetic changes that make a mutant grow wings for some random reason when it is happy on the ground with the rest of us and etc.

Indeed, "quality ones have been recommended". Again, I don't think they'll do you any good because you believe that the logical method of induction (basing future patterns on established patterns) is nonsense, and that is (as I explained) how scientists come to these conclusions.

Quote:You people push empirical evidence down Theists throats daily. How dare you criticize me as closed minded when most of you patently refuse to give ANY empirical evidence for macroevolution other than "we assume small changes over time become big changes". Really? Look at a human government lately? Smile

Don't stereotype. I don't stereotype theists, and I'm pretty sure that when atheists do that you object. So don't do it.

No one can give you "empirical evidence" while you're questioning the method by which it was obtained. It wouldn't hold any value to you.

Quote:And I'm sorry but fully formed life whether with us now or in the fossil record that shows similarities in design does not demonstrate how they grew new organs, tissues and systems over time. There is not one insect growing a seventh leg or an arthropod growing a ninth leg. There are no humans growing new nostrils to sniff pollution (or liberalism). The 200 vestigial organs I formally had are now recognized to maybe be my appendix, tonsils and wisdom teeth, all of which are eminently debatable.

The consistency of life is good evidence for its shared origins. An insect growing a seventh leg would be a problem for evolution (not a deal-breaker, but it would require an explanation) whereas the lack of real divergence is not good evidence for God. We can explain why there are millions of species of ants. Can you?

Quote:Christians have 100 pieces of empirical evidence for your evidence for macroevolution! Not hard since you have none... I'm interested, however, in knowing what the truth is (my main reason for converting above even Heaven and Hell) so I'll keep you posted.

Plenty of evidence has been presented, but you disagree with our method, in the same way that we don't think "it's in the bible" is a good method for collecting evidence, either. So maybe you can empathize with us a bit when we tell you that your evidence is not compelling.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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19-04-2013, 06:51 AM (This post was last modified: 19-04-2013 06:55 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
PleaseJesus,

This may get lost in the wash, but I suggest starting close to home - and by that I mean from a Christian perspective. I suggest "Creation or Evolution, do we have to choose?" by Denis Alexander[1]. It is primarily written from a DNA/genetics point of view, and you can be confident he isn't pushing an atheist agenda while you read.

He spends a fair bit of time grounding the question the title of the book but also spends a reasonable amount of time on the evidence itself. The main thing I found unsatisfying was the limited time he spent on how one can reconcile any kind of Biblical literalism with the evidence. He lists a few ways in which to reconcile it, but never really dives into them. If you want further reading online I suggest looking into the BioLogos web site[2].

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Creation-Evolution...0825462924
[2] http://biologos.org/

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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19-04-2013, 01:10 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Thank you, Hafnof. Looking forward.
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19-04-2013, 01:14 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Quote:You made the same idiotic statement of a cat not giving birth to a dog. That would be speciation at the timescale of a single generation.

Really, honestly, truly? I didn't know that... Smile Gosh, you know so much. There is NO species on Earth of any kind and NO fossil of any kind EVER that shows ANY macroevolution. It's all MEDI. Macroevolution did it. And that without emprical evidence. Maybe I should have typed instead since you're so arrogant Cats...cats...cats...cats... a million times. Look, still no dogs.

Quote:And you clearly have no idea what is meant by mutation in genetics. We're not talking X-men here dude. Read that Evolution textbook.

Of course I do, we can look at all types of non-harmful mutations, right? And possibilities abound. Of course, when humans have slightly mutated genes they have deficiencies, usually.

Quote:"Let's start with "macroevolution" is not seen now and is the assumed vehicle for species change. Be honest, please."

If you don't see it, you clearly are not looking, or are blind.

The illustration you displayed has awesome similarities between species. And, so? God made very efficient systems on the macro and micro-sized levels, pardon the pun. The human eye for instance. I was quoting the paper where it would "only" take 1800 helpful (only) mutations to make an eye--this without any functionality as tied to a brain.
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19-04-2013, 01:38 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(19-04-2013 01:14 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:You made the same idiotic statement of a cat not giving birth to a dog. That would be speciation at the timescale of a single generation.

Really, honestly, truly? I didn't know that... Smile Gosh, you know so much. There is NO species on Earth of any kind and NO fossil of any kind EVER that shows ANY macroevolution. It's all MEDI. Macroevolution did it. And that without emprical evidence. Maybe I should have typed instead since you're so arrogant Cats...cats...cats...cats... a million times. Look, still no dogs.

There is no single fossil that will show 'macroevolution'. That would be a saltation, and those are rejected in evolutionary theory.

It is the sequences of fossils that show adaptation and speciation.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-04-2013, 02:37 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
why don't you try it, get a few fruit flies and select the weirdest to reproduce, I bet you'll get weird bugs in no time Tongue

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19-04-2013, 02:37 PM
Re: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
You're truly a fucking idiot.
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