Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
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03-05-2013, 01:33 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Quote:So, my question about Linnean classification?...
Yes, I understand it well. You understand it better than I. But similarity between, e.g. fish species indicates that new species appear in the record (and today). Similarities between marine and land animals, for another example, do not prove macroevolution. Sorry. They serve as circumstantial evidence.
Quote:Note that the very terms "Microevolution" and "Macroevolution" are meaningless.

There is no clear delineation of "species" (or, biblically, "kind".) Taxonomy is a construct of science in order to more easily classify creatures, but nature ignores it. There is no clear barrier between species that you can say "Well, we see microevolution, but we never see one species turn into another."
You're not understanding, when a Christian says, "kind" they are using the same taxonomy word as you do and NOT for "species". Fish species can give birth to new fish species. You can call that whatever you like, adaptation, speciation, genetic pool changes (and how wondrous and unique all species are in their own gene pool, with every dog different than every other, and every plant... and in organic matter, every snowflake and every GRAIN OF SAND).

There are some basic and some more complex changes that must take place in a population across a generation(s) to make a new species? Yes? There are some INCREDIBLY, TITANICALLY HUGE changes that must take place to give wingless species wings later down (the imagined) road or to make land creatures sea creatures or vice versa. Yes?
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03-05-2013, 01:54 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Book suggestions for SexuallyPleasingJebusTrollJoke :

Biology for Dummies
Physics for Dummies
Evolution for Dummies
The Bible for Dummies.
Chemistry for Dummies
Logic for Dummies

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating Yogi, CAAT-LY.
Assistant Manager, Vice Detection, Whoville : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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03-05-2013, 01:57 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(03-05-2013 01:54 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Book suggestions for SexuallyPleasingJebusTrollJoke :

Biology for Dummies
Physics for Dummies
Evolution for Dummies
The Bible for Dummies.
Chemistry for Dummies
Logic for Dummies

Don't forget "Critical Thinking for Dummies"

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03-05-2013, 02:04 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(03-05-2013 01:33 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:So, my question about Linnean classification?...
Yes, I understand it well. You understand it better than I. But similarity between, e.g. fish species indicates that new species appear in the record (and today). Similarities between marine and land animals, for another example, do not prove macroevolution. Sorry. They serve as circumstantial evidence.
Quote:Note that the very terms "Microevolution" and "Macroevolution" are meaningless.

There is no clear delineation of "species" (or, biblically, "kind".) Taxonomy is a construct of science in order to more easily classify creatures, but nature ignores it. There is no clear barrier between species that you can say "Well, we see microevolution, but we never see one species turn into another."
You're not understanding, when a Christian says, "kind" they are using the same taxonomy word as you do and NOT for "species". Fish species can give birth to new fish species. You can call that whatever you like, adaptation, speciation, genetic pool changes (and how wondrous and unique all species are in their own gene pool, with every dog different than every other, and every plant... and in organic matter, every snowflake and every GRAIN OF SAND).

There are some basic and some more complex changes that must take place in a population across a generation(s) to make a new species? Yes? There are some INCREDIBLY, TITANICALLY HUGE changes that must take place to give wingless species wings later down (the imagined) road or to make land creatures sea creatures or vice versa. Yes?

You don't get my question.

Is the Linnean Classification of animal species real? Or is it a byproduct of human attempts to classify the natural world?

Are species real concepts in nature?

Evolve
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03-05-2013, 02:14 PM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2013 02:20 PM by jhantheman.)
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Here let me guide you through this, as an actual paleontologist and deep time geologist I may be able to shed some light on this situation.

Let's start with fossils. Fossils can ONLY be preserved in VERY SPECIFIC conditions. You will only get fossils preserved in marine/fluvial/water based system. Any bedrock that is exposed to the atmosphere will get eroded, leaving a massive unconformity. Can you imagine how many organisms are lost to this process? There are unconformities that can represent 100's of millions of years, how many species came around and went extinct during this time? Fossils are an incredibly incomplete record of life on earth, and only show a fraction of a percent of the total species that have ever existed. Yes there are gaps in the fossil record. Huge gaps. But there is enough evidence to prove, without any doubt, that fossils transition from one time period to another.

Fossils become more complex as you go through time. This is an absolute fact that cannot possibly be argued, no matter how much creationists try. Based on one of the principle laws of geology, the law of superposition, rock units are deposited in a temporal (time) sequence, with the oldest on bottom and the youngest on top. The oldest rock layers, e.g. the ones that are on the bottom of any given outcrop (provided no tectonic disturbance has disrupted the position of sedimentary layers), have less complex organisms than ones that are higher up in a section. You will NEVER see mammals predate fish, you know will never see tigers predate t-rex, you will never see limbs predate fins, etc.

Evolution is defined by a process called punctuated equilibrium. This has been argued by educated biologists, but it is the most reasonable explanation behind evolutionary change. Species stay at an equilibrium as long as the environment allows them to, and once change is needed, random mutations that normally would have died have the chance to flourish. If these random mutations are better adapated to the changing environment/conditions, the species will change over a rather short amount of time. Punctuated equilibrium; equilibria punctuated with short bouts of change.

I recommend reading a book called "Your Inner Fish", by Neil Shubin. Great summation of evolution of our parts through time and evolutionary biology as a whole.

Let me know if you have any questions.
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09-05-2013, 11:16 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
I have a question:

How short is a punctuated equilibria moment? (Rapid change, not that all evolutionists buy it, you know).

In other words, why do we see many fossils arise suddenly as new species yet there are no half-winged fossils, no fossils showing half-developed anything?
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09-05-2013, 11:21 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Quote:You don't get my question.

Is the Linnean Classification of animal species real? Or is it a byproduct of human attempts to classify the natural world?

Are species real concepts in nature?

Species are real concepts in nature. Linnean systems are clearly human attempts at evolutionary discernment, since (you never have admitted this though I've mentioned it several times) they change year-to-year and decade-to-decade. Since I was young, I've heard there's no common ancestor for all species, there is a common ancestor, there may be... I've heard about humans and apes and lemurs and then lemurs are off the table, etc.

The bottom line is I believe in speciation and evolution. Their are titanic hurdles, however, to:

*The design/evolution of complex animal organs

*The transition via mechanistic evolution of land animals to sea/vice versa, flightless animals to flight/blind animals to sighted animals, etc.

Again, saying "lots of microevolution becomes macroevolution, not that we've ever seen macroevolution" is far from saying "dogs can breed new dogs but over millions of generations of dogs, they will all still be dogs as we know them now, not flying dogs, not talking dogs, and not birds".
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09-05-2013, 11:21 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(09-05-2013 11:16 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I have a question:

How short is a punctuated equilibria moment? (Rapid change, not that all evolutionists buy it, you know).

In other words, why do we see many fossils arise suddenly as new species yet there are no half-winged fossils, no fossils showing half-developed anything?

[Image: bird_evol.jpg]

It took literally 30 seconds to find this. If you're going to be ignorant the internet is probably the worst place to do so.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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09-05-2013, 11:33 AM
Re: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Finally. An answer.

Here is the thing, you are likely to get little debate on the legitimacy of the higher levels of the classification system as they appear to be real in nature (there are clear distinctions between the kingdoms and the phyla, etc) but at the species level, it is much more ambiguous. This is a big part of the reason why people start talking about speciation as if it is some magical transformation that happens before their eyes. We define species based on arbitrary criteria, and that varies depending on what definition of species you use.

Species may or may not be real concepts in nature. They are useful concepts for cataloging and identification, but cloud the issue at times.

One organism adapts to its environment, as the environment changes so does it (over the course of generations, ergo it is the offspring that adapt). The difference between one "species" and the next is really just time. The time that separates them from their common ancestor.

And as for punctuated equilibrium, time is wrapped up in the length of generations. Those with short generations, adapt quicker whereas those with longer generations take a longer amount of absolute time.
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09-05-2013, 11:59 AM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Quote:It took literally 30 seconds to find this. If you're going to be ignorant the internet is probably the worst place to do so.

Arrgh. You're not understanding:

1. There are only what looks to you like PERFECTLY developing wings. There should be (what?) 1,000 other types of non-flying appendages that evolved via mechanistic, non-guided processes.

2. You're filling in the blanks with "E did it" between the forms. Velociraptor has limbs. They are working limbs (like, I saw the movie out now in 3D). Wink They are not half-wings.
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