Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
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09-05-2013, 12:01 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Quote:Here is the thing, you are likely to get little debate on the legitimacy of the higher levels of the classification system as they appear to be real in nature (there are clear distinctions between the kingdoms and the phyla, etc) but at the species level, it is much more ambiguous. This is a big part of the reason why people start talking about speciation as if it is some magical transformation that happens before their eyes. We define species based on arbitrary criteria, and that varies depending on what definition of species you use.

Species may or may not be real concepts in nature. They are useful concepts for cataloging and identification, but cloud the issue at times.

One organism adapts to its environment, as the environment changes so does it (over the course of generations, ergo it is the offspring that adapt). The difference between one "species" and the next is really just time. The time that separates them from their common ancestor.

I get that. Makes sense.

Quote:And as for punctuated equilibrium, time is wrapped up in the length of generations. Those with short generations, adapt quicker whereas those with longer generations take a longer amount of absolute time.

It must be really, really quick. Since there are no half-formed wings, half-formed gills, or half-formed anything. We have not just millions of fossils but millions of species observed in nature now and in the past. Arguably, non of them have vestigial or ancillary anything. And no, I don't want to argue about this with you. My tailbone serves a purpose, so does my appendix and my molars. Same with everything in every animal that has ever lived.
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09-05-2013, 12:07 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(09-05-2013 11:59 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:It took literally 30 seconds to find this. If you're going to be ignorant the internet is probably the worst place to do so.

Arrgh. You're not understanding:

1. There are only what looks to you like PERFECTLY developing wings. There should be (what?) 1,000 other types of non-flying appendages that evolved via mechanistic, non-guided processes.

2. You're filling in the blanks with "E did it" between the forms. Velociraptor has limbs. They are working limbs (like, I saw the movie out now in 3D). Wink They are not half-wings.

Well there is your problem the raptors in Jurassic Park were nothing like the real ones at all. You asked for wing development and then use a fictional movie as your base for rejecting it that just shows how tied to your illogic you are. Also Macro-evolution does not exist because there is no such thing as micro or macro evolution just Evolution through natural selection. If you actually want to learn there are tons of good books out there on the process however it seems you just want to confirm your own preconceived notions.

[Image: Hitchhikersguide_zps7678fbae.jpg]
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09-05-2013, 12:33 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(09-05-2013 12:01 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Here is the thing, you are likely to get little debate on the legitimacy of the higher levels of the classification system as they appear to be real in nature (there are clear distinctions between the kingdoms and the phyla, etc) but at the species level, it is much more ambiguous. This is a big part of the reason why people start talking about speciation as if it is some magical transformation that happens before their eyes. We define species based on arbitrary criteria, and that varies depending on what definition of species you use.

Species may or may not be real concepts in nature. They are useful concepts for cataloging and identification, but cloud the issue at times.

One organism adapts to its environment, as the environment changes so does it (over the course of generations, ergo it is the offspring that adapt). The difference between one "species" and the next is really just time. The time that separates them from their common ancestor.

I get that. Makes sense.

Quote:And as for punctuated equilibrium, time is wrapped up in the length of generations. Those with short generations, adapt quicker whereas those with longer generations take a longer amount of absolute time.

It must be really, really quick. Since there are no half-formed wings, half-formed gills, or half-formed anything. We have not just millions of fossils but millions of species observed in nature now and in the past. Arguably, non of them have vestigial or ancillary anything. And no, I don't want to argue about this with you. My tailbone serves a purpose, so does my appendix and my molars. Same with everything in every animal that has ever lived.

"And no, I don't want to argue about this with you. My tailbone serves a purpose, so does my appendix and my molars. Same with everything in every animal that has ever lived."

Then you are not really here to give an argument, you are here to proselytize.

As for the "no half-formed wings" argument. Look at any baby bird and its half-formed wings. Do they serve no purpose? They don't aid in flight, but they do serve a purpose even when not fully formed. Baby birds flap their wings when climbing steep inclines as a way of holding themselves to the surface.

.

They can use their wings to assist in climbing surfaces they otherwise could not.

Ducks use them for swimming before they can use them for flight.

And we see the development of these proto-wings in dinosaurs. They were limbs not for flight, but for running. They served their purpose well and as the generations continued to pass, some developed lighter bodies and shorter legs and began to take to subaerial flight (like baby birds also do when leaving the nest, they will jump out and use the wings for stability, but not flight).


As for your assertion that "It must be really, really quick." Geologically instantaneous is how I would define "quick." But that is, once again, different for different organisms due to lifespan. For bacteria, the Lenski experiment has shown it to be less than decades. For organisms with much longer generational timescales, it could be millions of years (and geologically, that is still instantaneous). You want to define some measure of "quick" so as to refute it, but you're trying to apply a single timeframe to unequal organisms.

If you are not here to debate, then don't reply.

Is this place still a shithole run by a dumbass calvinist?
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09-05-2013, 01:09 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Mammoths frozen in ice/permafrost
[Image: jarkov_decouvert_dans_son_bloc_de_glace2.jpg]
(18-04-2013 02:03 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I already wrote I want books from experts not your spurious "proofs". The bloody mammoths you pictured are frozen standing erect, evidencing catastrophisms that are biblical but denied in your worldview.

Spurious... hmmm...
So, because this Mammoth's tusks are positioned they way they are in the picture do you assume that it was standing erect at the time it croaked? Do you also assume it was frozen in this nearly perfect square - like a party joke ice cube containing a bug or a Mammoth?

I would say it is being hauled back from being frozen somewhere in some precarious position. I am going to say the people who dug out this Mammoth used it's tusks to figure out where to dig so they wouldn't damage the body. They must have recon'd it's size and eyeballed a larger than necessary area and cut in the shape of a square to haul it to a place to better study it. It's standing that way because they cut it in a utilitarian shape to expedite extraction.

Seeing something the way you want to see it, has nothing to do with how it really is.

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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09-05-2013, 02:07 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Quote:Well there is your problem the raptors in Jurassic Park were nothing like the real ones at all. You asked for wing development and then use a fictional movie as your base for rejecting it that just shows how tied to your illogic you are. Also Macro-evolution does not exist because there is no such thing as micro or macro evolution just Evolution through natural selection. If you actually want to learn there are tons of good books out there on the process however it seems you just want to confirm your own preconceived notions.
I was kidding with the movie and also my mark of Smile.

If you don't want to use the perfectly acceptable term, macroevolution, coin another term for the very difficult transitions that are beyond new species and new families, even new kingdoms, like plants to animals. Thanks.
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09-05-2013, 02:14 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Quote:If you are not here to debate, then don't reply.
I'm happy to debate. Many Christians would argue for a different standard of temperature and pressure pre-Noahic flood. In that context, proto wings are wings and etc. But this is a small, small point.

Can you give some examples of organs that are failed in nature now? Other than blind eyes for fish living in darkness for generations, etc. I mean where are the 100,000 examples of failed evolutionary traits for successful adaptations as new complex organs?

Let me explain further. If we were in Darwin's day, I'd probably accept evolutionary theory as fact, all of it. But today, we know that all major changes are cellular, genetic changes. Our liver has 500 functions. What is the proto-liver that killed the animal that had it? We know humans ues 30 amino acids to clot when there is bleeding. What are the examples of organisms that had only 29 or 28 of 30 such acids?

I know your reponses are only two: 1. We can't see the failed examples. 2. Select micro-adaptations we can cull from transitory forms or modern anomalies.

I hate to use the term "irreducibly complex" here of all forums, but I can't think of any higher animal function that isn't irreducibly complex... breathing, walking, thinking, locomotion, apprehending moving prey, digestion, excretion, etc. Studying anatomy in college just honed and drilled in that fact for me every single day.
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09-05-2013, 02:16 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
Quote:Spurious... hmmm...
So, because this Mammoth's tusks are positioned they way they are in the picture do you assume that it was standing erect at the time it croaked? Do you also assume it was frozen in this nearly perfect square - like a party joke ice cube containing a bug or a Mammoth?

I would say it is being hauled back from being frozen somewhere in some precarious position. I am going to say the people who dug out this Mammoth used it's tusks to figure out where to dig so they wouldn't damage the body. They must have recon'd it's size and eyeballed a larger than necessary area and cut in the shape of a square to haul it to a place to better study it. It's standing that way because they cut it in a utilitarian shape to expedite extraction.

Seeing something the way you want to see it, has nothing to do with how it really is.
You are putting forth a very good logical argument here.

However, mammoths have been found:

*Frozen while still chewing plants and digesting them

*Frozen while copulating

*Frozen so fast that the soldiers who discovered them enjoyed a meal on the run

If the Earth was shaken as the Bible states, near the equator where Noah was the motion and resultant waves would be tolerable to the ark, while at the poles immense freezing winds would quick freeze life.
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09-05-2013, 02:17 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(09-05-2013 02:14 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:If you are not here to debate, then don't reply.
I'm happy to debate. Many Christians would argue for a different standard of temperature and pressure pre-Noahic flood. In that context, proto wings are wings and etc. But this is a small, small point.

Can you give some examples of organs that are failed in nature now? Other than blind eyes for fish living in darkness for generations, etc. I mean where are the 100,000 examples of failed evolutionary traits for successful adaptations as new complex organs?

Let me explain further. If we were in Darwin's day, I'd probably accept evolutionary theory as fact, all of it. But today, we know that all major changes are cellular, genetic changes. Our liver has 500 functions. What is the proto-liver that killed the animal that had it? We know humans ues 30 amino acids to clot when there is bleeding. What are the examples of organisms that had only 29 or 28 of 30 such acids?

I know your reponses are only two: 1. We can't see the failed examples. 2. Select micro-adaptations we can cull from transitory forms or modern anomalies.

I hate to use the term "irreducibly complex" here of all forums, but I can't think of any higher animal function that isn't irreducibly complex... breathing, walking, thinking, locomotion, apprehending moving prey, digestion, excretion, etc. Studying anatomy in college just honed and drilled in that fact for me every single day.

Hind limbs of whales
[Image: Whale_skeleton.png]

Is this place still a shithole run by a dumbass calvinist?
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09-05-2013, 02:18 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
(09-05-2013 02:16 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Spurious... hmmm...
So, because this Mammoth's tusks are positioned they way they are in the picture do you assume that it was standing erect at the time it croaked? Do you also assume it was frozen in this nearly perfect square - like a party joke ice cube containing a bug or a Mammoth?

I would say it is being hauled back from being frozen somewhere in some precarious position. I am going to say the people who dug out this Mammoth used it's tusks to figure out where to dig so they wouldn't damage the body. They must have recon'd it's size and eyeballed a larger than necessary area and cut in the shape of a square to haul it to a place to better study it. It's standing that way because they cut it in a utilitarian shape to expedite extraction.

Seeing something the way you want to see it, has nothing to do with how it really is.
You are putting forth a very good logical argument here.

However, mammoths have been found:

*Frozen while still chewing plants and digesting them

*Frozen while copulating

*Frozen so fast that the soldiers who discovered them enjoyed a meal on the run

If the Earth was shaken as the Bible states, near the equator where Noah was the motion and resultant waves would be tolerable to the ark, while at the poles immense freezing winds would quick freeze life.

And how does that go against them having died via a non-catastrophic process? People have been found frozen to death without it having to have been a catastrophe.

Is this place still a shithole run by a dumbass calvinist?
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09-05-2013, 02:21 PM
RE: Book Recommendation for PleaseJesus
[Image: giraffe-recurrent-laryngeal-nerve.png]

The routing of the vocal nerve in vertebrates is a result of the route from fish wear it runs from the brain and straight down to the voice-box equivalent structure. It is anchored at the heart, and still is in other vertebrates.

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