Born This Way?
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16-06-2017, 08:59 AM
Rainbow Born This Way?
I've been watching, kind of from a short distance, LGBTQ people argue among themselves about the "born this way" argument for a little while now. I've always wondered what percentage of a persons LGBTQ status is based on biological determinism vs environmental etc. I still don't think it's a "choice", but I also think many people are more fluid than rigid in their sexual and gender identities than we really acknowledge.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017...62f63bb688

Ultimately- whether people were born LGBTQ or not, equality is still a necessity and shouldn't depend on that idea.
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16-06-2017, 09:29 AM (This post was last modified: 16-06-2017 09:32 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Born This Way?
(16-06-2017 08:59 AM)Emma Wrote:  I've been watching, kind of from a short distance, LGBTQ people argue among themselves about the "born this way" argument for a little while now. I've always wondered what percentage of a persons LGBTQ status is based on biological determinism vs environmental etc. I still don't think it's a "choice", but I also think many people are more fluid than rigid in their sexual and gender identities than we really acknowledge.

Ultimately- whether people were born LGBTQ or not, equality is still a necessity and shouldn't depend on that idea.

No argument about your "ultimately" statement, whatsoever.

That said, there's a pretty good set of evidence that the sexuality one develops is the result of epigenetic factors (influences on the way the DNA is "read" during fetal development, mainly) while the brain is wiring itself up, so to speak. People tend to think that only what is written in the DNA is what is biologically determined, but epigenetics and the maternal hormonal environment in which the DNA is read plays a powerful role in how that DNA is expressed, and as such can be said to be equally important as what's actually written in the code itself, so to speak.

See, for one example (Edit: with regard to development of sex characteristics) of these phenomena:

In mammals, once genetic sex has been determined and the fetus begins its development, the fetal environment, especially hormones, can result in significant modifications of the genetically based sex. The effect of prenatal hormones on later anatomy, physiology, and behavior are most clearly demonstrated in several animals showing the “intrauterine position effect” (vom Saal et al., 1999). In litter-bearing mammals such as mice, rats, gerbils, and pigs, each pup shares the uterus with several others, some of which are of a different sex. Significant differences among females occur if the fetus is located between two males or with a male on one side or with no male on either side. Testosterone is produced by fetal males and can masculinize adjacent females to various degrees. Thus, not only do individuals vary as a result of genetic variability, but they can also vary as a result of prenatal hormonal organizational effects (see additional discussion in Chapter 4). Extensive studies with the female mouse have revealed that adult anatomical structures, such as the genitalia and sexually dimorphic parts of the brain, and the rate of reproductive development vary as a result of proximity to males in the womb (Vandenbergh and Huggett, 1995).

Studies with animals suggest that hormonal transfer between fetuses can influence later anatomical, physiological, and behavioral characteristics. Some data from studies with humans, recently summarized by Miller (1998), suggest that a similar phenomenon occurs in mixed-sex twins. His review of the literature reveals a number of characteristics apparently influenced by transmission of testosterone from the male twin to the female twin.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK222286/

However, as I so often emphasize, there are very few black-and-whites in biology; everything is a spectrum, including sexuality, as we've known since the work done by Kinsey et al, in the 1950s. It should hardly be surprising that while heterosexuality is the norm (duh), that we should also find a broad spectrum of outcomes in the various parts of the brain that control our sense of identity and/or to wards what group(s) we're attracted, sexually.

Either way, the phenotype that develops in the adult, when the sexuality genes "switch on" during puberty, is set before the individual is born. In that sense, it's astounding to hear people continue to claim it's some sort of choice-- the anecdotal evidence alone, where so many thousands are willing to hate and even kill themselves because they want to change (usually because of the influence of religion on their social training) but cannot-- and I think we should heavily object to those who continue to push that old narrative.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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16-06-2017, 10:46 AM
RE: Born This Way?
It's a choice that you're born with???


Big Grin


Ultimately, it matters not. People are, how people are, and if you've gotta problem with that, well sorry - YOU gotta problem.....

Get over it.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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16-06-2017, 10:57 AM
Born This Way?
Somebody had to do this.



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16-06-2017, 11:09 AM
RE: Born This Way?
(16-06-2017 10:57 AM)KUSA Wrote:  Somebody had to do this.




The video is so dumb, but I still like the song aside from the "Orient" thing. Laugh out load
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16-06-2017, 06:15 PM
RE: Born This Way?
Its' an interesting question, and I seriously doubt there's as simple black/white answer to it. I think we're probably born with the capacity to be many things, environment firms up some of those capacities into propensities, and only then does choice enter into it in any meaningful way. And even then... it's hard to say how much choice we have about some things.

In recent years, for example, I have come to the conclusion that I was born an atheist. Well, in some sense that's a trivial observation, in that religion is a human invention, and none of us come out of the womb with it; we have to learn it. But what about the capacity for belief? We all seem to have that to some extent. Is the capacity for religious belief any different from the capacity for belief in general?

It seems to me that some of this, at least, is involuntary. I didn't "choose" to be an atheist; but I do choose to openly identify as an atheist. Nor do I think it's possible for me to just "choose" to believe in a deity; I either do or I don't, and I don't. I could pretend, sure, but I can no more sincerely believe in God just by choosing to do so, than I can choose to levitate and suddenly rise in to the sky.

I know I'm going on about religion and your question is about sexuality; I suspect there are similar factors at work. Choice may be involved on some level, but it's subtle and complex. Human beings are pretty messy creatures, after all. Yes

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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16-06-2017, 06:32 PM
RE: Born This Way?
You might enjoy reading this, Dr. H.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7...clination/

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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16-06-2017, 07:27 PM
RE: Born This Way?
(16-06-2017 08:59 AM)Emma Wrote:  I've been watching, kind of from a short distance, LGBTQ people argue among themselves about the "born this way" argument for a little while now. I've always wondered what percentage of a persons LGBTQ status is based on biological determinism vs environmental etc. I still don't think it's a "choice", but I also think many people are more fluid than rigid in their sexual and gender identities than we really acknowledge.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017...62f63bb688

Ultimately- whether people were born LGBTQ or not, equality is still a necessity and shouldn't depend on that idea.

Well when they took a survey 40% said they had been born that way and 40% said it was early life influences, and the other 20% said they just kinda got sucked into it!
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16-06-2017, 08:17 PM
RE: Born This Way?
I have no idea and I don't think it makes a lick of difference in terms of discriminating against people whose chosen-or-born orientation doesn't agree with their genitalia at birth.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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16-06-2017, 08:22 PM
RE: Born This Way?
Oh, probably should go on to say that sort of discrimination should not be enacted as law or tolerated in any public setting.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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