Born This Way?
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19-06-2017, 08:48 AM
RE: Born This Way?
(18-06-2017 03:43 PM)Jeanne Wrote:  I don't know...

Human beings are so very adaptive. If one is living within this minority there is more to it than just sexual relationships. Women or men may bond for comfort and friendship, may bond to help support their children, may bond for economic reasons. The "lifestyle" may appeal to individuals, as the community may appeal to individuals.

When I think of myself, I know I could live different from what I have lived. Am I definitely a heterosexual because I have loved boys and men and married a man, whom I share a deep, loving bond? I know there are women to whom I am drawn intimately, if not necessarily sexually. Could I also form a sexual bond with such a woman if my life changed? I think I could.

At my age and situation, I am not particularly a sensual person. Could I form a platonic relationship and live in a different style and community if my life changed? I think I could.

My daughters and I often consider that we women should live without men...even though we love our men wholeheartedly. Surely men must feel the same at times. Yes?

Yes...I reason that many are "born this way" but I think the need for support and companionship makes human beings be more flexible with whom they bond. I think human beings are very adaptable and that leads me to believe that many are also "adapted this way."

Do my rambling thoughts make any sense to anyone else?

This makes sense to me. I think, though, that maybe people are born with a range of adaptability in these areas- i.e., maybe you're bisexual to a degree that others are not and that means you're more able to adapt sexually. I feel that way about myself. I'm bisexual/pansexual. I'm adaptable and fluid in that area.

The same is not true for me when it comes to my gender identity. But why did it take me so long to realize that I was trans? Personally, I chalk it up to indoctrination (of gender roles and expectations and religious expectations), and gender reinforcement. My dad raised me to be a man and constantly pushed us to do masculine things- like sports and crap I was not interested in (though I did generally enjoy boy scouts when it wasn't awkward). I think others could be more or less adaptive in this area than others- which is why we see non-binary individuals as well as binary individuals.

So maybe sexuality, identity, and adaptability are all ranges and variables that are molded in the womb? That's what would make most sense to me and still fit within the frame of evidence we see.
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19-06-2017, 11:28 AM
RE: Born This Way?
Emma, I do so appreciate your ability to allow me to think out loud and not be offended by anything I wrote.

This isn't something that I think about everyday and I suspect most heterosexuals do not either.

In your life, it made sense for you to transition to the female sex. Even in all my musings and considerations that is never something that I would consider or would want to do. Bi-sexual without opportunity or much inclination is probably what I could call myself.

I think I had written before that I must wonder if the "experts" of today had my parents in their grip when I was in elementary school, would they have been encouraged to rear me as a boy, instead of just the free spirited tomboy and original person that my parents allowed me to be.

I was still more interested in male-oriented stuff in junior high school and was, of course, rebuffed by the powers that be. Why couldn't I take electrical wiring in 4-H? Why couldn't I take Agriculture and Shop in high school?

But...I was definitely female. Yet, I cut my hair very, very short and preferred to wear male clothing and did the chores at home that used to be done only by boys and men. Didn't like nail polish or make-up or making much to do over my hair or body.

I was and always have been just me, Jeanne. A bit too outspoken in my opinion and a bit too ready to stand up to bullies and for those being bullied. A bit too determined to be different and yet at the same time a person who sought to promote harmony.

Anyway...maybe too much information.

To me, I am realistic and accept that humans are complicated creatures and not always ready to accept their own truth or nature or biases. And...yes, we are influenced by society, but society has been around for hundreds of thousands of years. The apparent differences took hold of humanity and the acceptance of anything different from that has waxed and waned throughout history.

Here we are today. So what are we going to do? I suspect most do the best they can to accept change and for some it may be impossible, but that doesn't make them evil or worthless human beings. It just makes them who they are at this time in their life.

Humanity continues to roll with the punches.

Hugs to you, Emma.

"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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19-06-2017, 04:26 PM
RE: Born This Way?
(16-06-2017 06:32 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You might enjoy reading this, Dr. H.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7...clination/

The premise is fascinating, but I'm skeptical of their method.

l"The twins, all male and in their early 30s, were asked how often they currently went to religious services, prayed, and discussed religious teachings. This was compared with when they were growing up and living with their families. Then, each participant answered the same questions regarding their mother, father, and their twin."

Well OK, but does that tell you what they believe, or does it just tell you how they act?
I attended religious services, prayed, and discussed religious teachings for years without believing a word of it. I still discuss religious teachings all the time, I'll go to religious services for social reasons, and I can put on a show of praying if I have to.

I think I would have gone for questions more directly designed to get at belief itself.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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19-06-2017, 04:31 PM
RE: Born This Way?
(17-06-2017 02:46 AM)morondog Wrote:  The "born this way" argument carries weight with the religious because if God made you gay, then it's a bit off-sides to say being gay is a sin.

Ah, but what if you were made that way by ... Satan? Evil_monster

Introducing supernatural beings always seems to cause more problems than it ever solves. Tongue

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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20-06-2017, 07:46 AM
RE: Born This Way?
The ability of zealous xians to assign anything of which they disapprove to Satan makes all arguments a win-win for them all the time.

The "whispering of demons" is a constant threat to believers such as these. The "weaving of spells" ...my term...through near continuous prayer and other spiritual warfare is part of their lives.

"All that I believe is good comes from God and all that I believe is evil comes from Satan." says the zealous Christian.

They may pray for demons to leave the sinner alone and able then to find Jesus and they may consider you a human whose soul is in dire straits and try to help you, but they will never accept that God made you "that way."

"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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20-06-2017, 08:57 PM
RE: Born This Way?
(20-06-2017 07:46 AM)Jeanne Wrote:  The ability of zealous xians to assign anything of which they disapprove to Satan makes all arguments a win-win for them all the time.

The "whispering of demons" is a constant threat to believers such as these. The "weaving of spells" ...my term...through near continuous prayer and other spiritual warfare is part of their lives.

"All that I believe is good comes from God and all that I believe is evil comes from Satan." says the zealous Christian.

They may pray for demons to leave the sinner alone and able then to find Jesus and they may consider you a human whose soul is in dire straits and try to help you, but they will never accept that God made you "that way."

> “The human race has suffered for centuries and is still suffering from the mental disorder known as religion, and atheism is the only physician that will be able to effect a permanent cure.” (Joseph Lewis) Consider
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21-06-2017, 05:01 AM (This post was last modified: 21-06-2017 05:08 AM by OakTree500.)
RE: Born This Way?
Born this way or influenced vie nature/nurture ? Who knows.

In all honesty, and I mean this in a nice way, I personally don't care. You are who you are, and should you choose to love a man or women or both, [or neither], and/or transition into the opposite sex, then that's cool. Do what makes you happy.

I often say that as a white heterosexual male, my opinion on most things is probably not worth having anyway Laugh out load but you love who you love, and you are who you are.

Quick edit: To even say "heterosexual" seems odd. I've only ever dated women, but can appreciate a good looking man when I see one, I've just never been down that path, as it were. My opinion has always been you can love anybody of any sex, so who's to say I wouldn't be in a similar position now, but with a male partner? Just how it wall works out I suppose.

I don't want Fop, goddamn it! I'm a Dapper Dan man!
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27-06-2017, 11:28 PM
RE: Born This Way?
Ahem...
Well, from a lurker, please excuse this interruption.
To all of you who have been chatting on this thread: Wow. Thank You. You give me hope for humanity.

Your open, rational, respectful attitudes ~ damn! I so would love to see more of this in everyday life. You guys make my heart sing!

Thank you, every one of you...
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28-06-2017, 08:43 AM
RE: Born This Way?
(27-06-2017 11:28 PM)grasshoppa Wrote:  Ahem...
Well, from a lurker, please excuse this interruption.
To all of you who have been chatting on this thread: Wow. Thank You. You give me hope for humanity.

Your open, rational, respectful attitudes ~ damn! I so would love to see more of this in everyday life. You guys make my heart sing!

Thank you, every one of you...

Hey grasshoppa- I'm glad to hear this! These subjects are something I engage in many discussions on these forums. If you ever need or want to chat or ask questions about LGBT stuff, feel free to send me a message. I won't judge you for any questions you may have. The same goes for anyone on these forums, of course.
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04-07-2017, 05:59 AM
RE: Born This Way?
My wife stumbled on a very interesting article last night about how many people have other than XX and XY chromosomes, e.g., XXY, XYY, XXXY ... and how it's even possible to have male XY chromosomes and still develop normally into a female and in a study that looked at such women, it was found that none of the women in the study had gender identity / dysphoria issues. In other words there is tremendous diversity / complexity in sexual development and what you are phenotypically need not have anything to do with what you are genetically or how it impacts you emotionally / mentally. It's still early days even sorting this stuff out and how it all interacts with hormones, environment, socialization, and more.
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