Born This Way?
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04-07-2017, 06:16 AM
RE: Born This Way?
Born this way. Consider

I would have to think that 'born this way' is a big part of it all and so is how and where you were raised in that it can confine your thinking. I find it difficult to believe that someone just wakes up one day and decides to go through all it takes to become the 'other' sex physically. There has to be something innate.

All I know for sure here is that I really, really liked Kineo and missed him when he left. I was so happy to see the return of Kineo as the new, and more comfortable in her skin, Emma. Matters not to me other than I read a happier, more confident person in Emma. So it's all good. Thumbsup

Heart

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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04-07-2017, 06:39 AM (This post was last modified: 04-07-2017 06:50 AM by BlkFnx.)
RE: Born This Way?
(16-06-2017 08:59 AM)Emma Wrote:  I've been watching, kind of from a short distance, LGBTQ people argue among themselves about the "born this way" argument for a little while now. I've always wondered what percentage of a persons LGBTQ status is based on biological determinism vs environmental etc. I still don't think it's a "choice", but I also think many people are more fluid than rigid in their sexual and gender identities than we really acknowledge.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017...62f63bb688

Ultimately- whether people were born LGBTQ or not, equality is still a necessity and shouldn't depend on that idea.
The "evidence" for born this way is very weak and makes a fundamentally flawed assumption about sexuality. Namely it holds that sexuality is static. There is a great book written by a lesbian called Not Gay: Sex between straight white men. I will also say that from personal experience most of the men I have had sex with are straight. I have had and probably in the future will have sex with women. I identify as gay because it's less confusing for people, however it is better said that I am homoflexible. Depending I usually rank between a 4 and a 5 on the Kinsey scale, though on rare occasion I can be a true six or as low as a two, but both of those are rare.

What actually calls the "born this way" argument into question is two things really. 1) The identical twin studies. 2) Where the hell is the gene?

Sexual attraction is a fetish, people need to get over it. We have no more conscious control over what genitalia we are attracted to, than we do over what kind of hair or eye color we find attractive.

I also want to point out the very real irony that born this way gets it's origins in eugenics.
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05-07-2017, 10:38 AM
RE: Born This Way?
(04-07-2017 05:59 AM)mordant Wrote:  My wife stumbled on a very interesting article last night about how many people have other than XX and XY chromosomes, e.g., XXY, XYY, XXXY ... and how it's even possible to have male XY chromosomes and still develop normally into a female and in a study that looked at such women, it was found that none of the women in the study had gender identity / dysphoria issues. In other words there is tremendous diversity / complexity in sexual development and what you are phenotypically need not have anything to do with what you are genetically or how it impacts you emotionally / mentally. It's still early days even sorting this stuff out and how it all interacts with hormones, environment, socialization, and more.

I'd read an article a while back that sex chromosomes might be only part of the picture for sex determination. I imagine that it's a whole lot more complicated than simply the 2 chromosomes, but I'm not entirely certain. I can't find the link to the article right now, though I know i have it saved somewhere.

(04-07-2017 06:16 AM)Anjele Wrote:  Born this way. Consider

I would have to think that 'born this way' is a big part of it all and so is how and where you were raised in that it can confine your thinking. I find it difficult to believe that someone just wakes up one day and decides to go through all it takes to become the 'other' sex physically. There has to be something innate.

All I know for sure here is that I really, really liked Kineo and missed him when he left. I was so happy to see the return of Kineo as the new, and more comfortable in her skin, Emma. Matters not to me other than I read a happier, more confident person in Emma. So it's all good. Thumbsup

Heart

Awww thank you so much Anjele- I've always held you in high regard and I'm incredibly thankful that you've liked and cared for me. Hug Heart I certainly am happier and more confident than ever, and that's due in large part to supportive and caring people like you.

I think you're right that it's unlikely someone just decides to change sex. In my case, I came to the decision after 2 or 3 years of deliberation and self-loathing and depression. That depression was actually present since I was a teen, but I had been able to cope. I had a lot of coping mechanisms for all of my issues. And a lot of them revolved around religion and included repression. I first told me wife about maybe being transgender 5 years ago. Then followed 2-2.5 years of questioning and exploring my gender-nonconforming "tendencies". Eventually, we both came to the conclusion that transition was going to be necessary for me to live comfortably and happily.

There were choices involved, but the deepest parts of me were not aspects of my person-hood that I chose. Sorry for framing that rather clumsily, but I can't think of a better way to say it right now.
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05-07-2017, 12:53 PM
RE: Born This Way?
Quote:There were choices involved, but the deepest parts of me were not aspects of my person-hood that I chose. Sorry for framing that rather clumsily, but I can't think of a better way to say it right now.

Hi Emma! I hope it's ok for me to jump in here, I frankly don 't know a lot about forum decorum, as most of my experience has been on aviation or car sites, which are not particularly...err, well mannered.

I was reading a bit about your journey after reading this post, what I could find- again, I hope that's ok and doesn't make me sound like a stalker!

I can't imagine feeling like you're in the wrong body, what a frightening concept! I can imagine, at least in part, the sheer courage it must take to not only admit that, but to confront it, and to make the changes you need to make to find happiness.

Kudos to you, and respect! Heart
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05-07-2017, 12:56 PM
RE: Born This Way?
(05-07-2017 12:53 PM)Flyboy60 Wrote:  I can imagine, at least in part, the sheer courage it must take to not only admit that, but to confront it, and to make the changes you need to make to find happiness.

Seconded. Fuck if I'd ever do something like this, even if I knew it would be the right thing. I'd be too shit-scared.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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05-07-2017, 01:01 PM
RE: Born This Way?
Quote:Seconded. Fuck if I'd ever do something like this, even if I knew it would be the right thing. I'd be too shit-scared.

My thoughts exactly...besides the various emotional/societal/familial pressures and fears...the thought of the physical transition itself is horrifying! I read up on the procedures, I have a little bit of a medical background (EMT-A), just enough to know I would be way too much of a wimp to go through with it. It takes serious motivation, and that can only come from a real place- this would not be the result of a whim or a sexual deviancy, as I hear so many proclaim. No way.
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05-07-2017, 01:27 PM
RE: Born This Way?
(05-07-2017 12:53 PM)Flyboy60 Wrote:  
Quote:There were choices involved, but the deepest parts of me were not aspects of my person-hood that I chose. Sorry for framing that rather clumsily, but I can't think of a better way to say it right now.

Hi Emma! I hope it's ok for me to jump in here, I frankly don 't know a lot about forum decorum, as most of my experience has been on aviation or car sites, which are not particularly...err, well mannered.

I was reading a bit about your journey after reading this post, what I could find- again, I hope that's ok and doesn't make me sound like a stalker!

I can't imagine feeling like you're in the wrong body, what a frightening concept! I can imagine, at least in part, the sheer courage it must take to not only admit that, but to confront it, and to make the changes you need to make to find happiness.

Kudos to you, and respect! Heart

Thank you Flyboy! Smile No I don't see you as a stalker, and I don't mind people reading about my story! I think I posted more in the forum pictures thread, but it would be a bunch of pages back if you're dedicated enough to find it lol.

Anyway- it is frightening. But I was mostly afraid of losing my wife, and then family and friends. I'm extremely lucky, the only person I've lost through this is my father.
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05-07-2017, 02:02 PM
RE: Born This Way?
Quote:I'm extremely lucky, the only person I've lost through this is my father.

That's great that your family and friends supported you, but sad about your father...as a father of three, two girls and a boy, all adults now, I cannot even imagine allowing something like this to come between my kids and I.

I don't know if your dad will ever come around or not, but if not, it is his choice and both of you lose because of it. That is truly a shame.

If I could go talk so sense into him, I'd hop a plane tonight for you. I'm afraid it isn't that easy, though...his rejection is based on fear, you know that, I assume? Until/unless he becomes willing to face that fear, the situation is static.

I just will never understand why people allow such inconsequential things to bother them so much. I know, to you, this was a huge thing- and I'm not taking anything away from that- but as a father, what does it matter if your child is a boy or a girl or a freaking leprechaun? It is your CHILD, man... if I was your father, I'd probably tease you a bit, because that's just how I am, but it would be good natured, and you would be expected to "fire back". This makes everything...feel normal and right, to me. Beats the hell out of ignoring the elephant in the room! If you can laugh, you can accept.

I hope things turn out the way you want them to, in the long run. Heart
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09-07-2017, 09:23 AM
RE: Born This Way?
(16-06-2017 08:59 AM)Emma Wrote:  I've been watching, kind of from a short distance, LGBTQ people argue among themselves about the "born this way" argument for a little while now. I've always wondered what percentage of a persons LGBTQ status is based on biological determinism vs environmental etc. I still don't think it's a "choice", but I also think many people are more fluid than rigid in their sexual and gender identities than we really acknowledge.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017...62f63bb688

Ultimately- whether people were born LGBTQ or not, equality is still a necessity and shouldn't depend on that idea.
I completely agree that born LGBTQ vs. choice is irrelevant in terms of nondiscrimination. However, "born this way" can make it easier for some people to accept people in the LGBTQ population.

My opinion based on what I know is that sexual orientation is overwhelmingly biological. Rocketsurgeon, for example, has posted information about that many times including in this thread (and knows far more than I about it) so I won't repeat that here.

Does that mean there can't be exceptions? Probably not. For example, if a child born heterosexual was raised from birth to adulthood in isolation from other people and taught that same-sex relationships were what everyone else does and what society considers acceptable, and that person was then allowed to have sex with someone of the same sex, they would probably not feel the revulsion about it that heterosexuals normally would. After a time, if they were allowed to be around people of both sexes, they would probably even choose homosexual relationships over heterosexual ones. However, this of course isn't even close to what normally happens with homosexuals. I think it just illustrates that choice is possible, but it's highly unlikely in most circumstances.

Let's face it, most people wouldn't want to have sex with whichever sex they aren't normally attracted to. That alone is a strong argument for it not being a choice. Bisexuals are an exception to that, but bisexuality is simply the middle of the biological continuum that determines sexual orientation and therefore it's not a choice either.

Finally, in the case of homosexuals for example, most are raised as heterosexuals and they get bombarded throughout their lives with heterosexual messages from society. And yet, their homosexuality persists. That's a strong argument against environmental influences being the determinant. I'm not saying environment can't play any role, but I don't believe it's the primary determinant or anywhere near as strong as the biological one.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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09-07-2017, 09:27 AM
RE: Born This Way?
(09-07-2017 09:23 AM)Impulse Wrote:  ..."born this way" can make it easier for some people to accept people in the LGBTQ population.

I think there is a lot of truth in this ^.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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