Born This Way?
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09-07-2017, 09:38 AM
RE: Born This Way?
Why born this way argument is a bad argument
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15-07-2017, 09:36 PM
RE: Born This Way?
(09-07-2017 09:38 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:   Why born this way argument is a bad argument

I think there are valid points in that article, but I disagree that they make born this way a bad argument. Born this way happens to be fact for many if not even most so how can it be a bad argument? I would rather say it's not a complete argument. It won't change minds for people who just can't accept people in the LGBTQ population, but it can change some minds or at least help substantially in that direction. Also, it can certainly be a strong argument against legislating in ways that hurt the LGBTQ population.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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17-07-2017, 09:07 AM
RE: Born This Way?
(15-07-2017 09:36 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 09:38 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:   Why born this way argument is a bad argument

I think there are valid points in that article, but I disagree that they make born this way a bad argument. Born this way happens to be fact for many if not even most so how can it be a bad argument? I would rather say it's not a complete argument. It won't change minds for people who just can't accept people in the LGBTQ population, but it can change some minds or at least help substantially in that direction. Also, it can certainly be a strong argument against legislating in ways that hurt the LGBTQ population.

Well-said. I read the article and was also unconvinced that it's an argument that should be abandoned. However, it's not entirely wrong by any means. "Born this way" is important, but it's not the full extent of the reason people should all be treated with respect.

Part of the reason it's important is because religious bigots have this idea that there's this big gay agenda to turn everyone gay or trans. And that trope persists even today. It's an old argument, but it hasn't gone away. These days it persists in the form of trans panic that public schools just want to teach about trans people to make the kids transgender. Which is stupid, and absurd.

But fighting that trope with "born this way" along is not sufficient. You also have to include the idea that all people should be respected in their choices for how to live their lives so long as they aren't hurting other people or removing consent in some way from other individuals.
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19-07-2017, 07:21 PM
RE: Born This Way?
(16-06-2017 08:59 AM)Emma Wrote:  I've been watching, kind of from a short distance, LGBTQ people argue among themselves about the "born this way" argument for a little while now. I've always wondered what percentage of a persons LGBTQ status is based on biological determinism vs environmental etc. I still don't think it's a "choice", but I also think many people are more fluid than rigid in their sexual and gender identities than we really acknowledge.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017...62f63bb688

Ultimately- whether people were born LGBTQ or not, equality is still a necessity and shouldn't depend on that idea.

Hi,

I have perhaps a different take on this since I am probably a few years older than you. I turn 60 this year.

I have come to "find", not believe, that people's sexuality isn't just fluid, it can change over time. I know a lot of men who have lived straight lives and have, in their later years, begun engaging in gay sex. Many of them are married and carry on what would be described as a double life, having sexual relations with male partners covertly, but having no desire to live a "gay" lifestyle or "come out".

There seem to me to be a lot of men who don't fall within the category of "gay" and lead heterosexual lifestyles but to some extent engage in "gay" practices. In some cultures, such as the one I live in, in the Near East, it is common practice for men to have sex with each other and no one would call them gay. I've invented a new term for them to show they engage in homosexual practices purely for enjoyment but are actually "straight". It's "Graight". I like it because, instead of being a nasty "put down" it can be applied to anyone without them having to explain if they are "gay", "bi", "bi-curious" and then being pigeon holed.

I think the LGBTQ tag is a bit silly, as is the notion of "coming out". Everyone is on a spectrum, physically, mentally and sociologically and it's impossible to distill sexuality down into a few neat categories. If we keep adding letters for different orientations, it will use up the entire alphabet.

That is why I am now also advocating the use of a new term for gender equality which takes all sexual orientations into account, is non-judgmental and can't be used to demean someone or invade their privacy. It's WFB... "whatever floats your boat".

Ultimately, yes, there are a spectrum of sexual predispostions with many causes and the reason we limit talking about them to just LBGTQ is as a result of social and political issues which make people not want to talk about their sexual orientation. It is not reflective of reality.
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20-07-2017, 11:50 AM
RE: Born This Way?
(19-07-2017 07:21 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I know a lot of men who have lived straight lives and have, in their later years, begun engaging in gay sex.

This claim surprises me. I'm older than you, and I've not once witnessed this sort of sexual ambiguity here in Australia.

Quote:In some cultures, such as the one I live in, in the Near East, it is common practice for men to have sex with each other and no one would call them gay.

I find this hard to accept as factual—unless you have data supporting the claim. According to the Pew Global Attitudes Project on Homosexuality [27 May 2014]: between 78% and 97% of the populations of Jordan, the Palestinian territories, Egypt, Turkey, Tunisia, and Lebanon believe that homosexuality should not be accepted by society. I'm not sure how you can realistically claim gay sex is "common practice" in the Near Eastern countries.

Quote:I've invented a new term for them to show they engage in homosexual practices purely for enjoyment but are actually "straight". It's "Graight". I like it because, instead of being a nasty "put down" it can be applied to anyone without them having to explain if they are "gay", "bi", "bi-curious" and then being pigeon holed.

Sorry, but you're overthinking this.

Quote:I think the LGBTQ tag is a bit silly, as is the notion of "coming out". Everyone is on a spectrum, physically, mentally and sociologically and it's impossible to distill sexuality down into a few neat categories.

Again; overthinking.

Quote:That is why I am now also advocating the use of a new term for gender equality which takes all sexual orientations into account, is non-judgmental and can't be used to demean someone or invade their privacy. It's WFB... "whatever floats your boat".

I'm not sure whether or not you're being serious here, or simply making your own little joke, but this notion is just plain stupid. You previously said that you thought sexual acronyms were "silly" and now you're contradicting that by wanting to create yet another one. Doesn't make any sense.

Quote:... as a result of social and political issues which make people not want to talk about their sexual orientation. It is not reflective of reality.

Nope. I have not even the slightest of "concerns" about discussing my sexuality, nor the sexuality of others, or their discussion about it. Why should I? We are what we are. I really don't have any innate "right" to question the morals or ethics of what other people do in their bedrooms providing it doesn't impinge on what I do in my bedroom.

From what you've posted here, I can only assume that you're living in a very locally-stratified community controlled largely by unqualified personal opinions or hearsay from friends and colleagues. You also seem to be overthinking all this stuff—overanalysing and deconstructing things to the Nth degree. You need to lighten up.

—Cheers. Smile

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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20-07-2017, 12:24 PM
RE: Born This Way?
(19-07-2017 07:21 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I have come to "find", not believe, that people's sexuality isn't just fluid, it can change over time.

Yes, that would make it fluid. I don't know that there's much study in sexual fluidity, I haven't researched it much myself. And I'd also imagine that there are a lot of factors that would play into a person's sexual fluidity that range from cultural factors to emotional to biological (such as hormonal) factors. But people are probably born with a certain level of fluidity because most people do not change much in their attraction over the course of their lives. But again, I don't know for certain.

(19-07-2017 07:21 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I know a lot of men who have lived straight lives and have, in their later years, begun engaging in gay sex. Many of them are married and carry on what would be described as a double life, having sexual relations with male partners covertly, but having no desire to live a "gay" lifestyle or "come out".

I honestly don't know what a "gay lifestyle" is. But if they are married and having affairs without their spouse's consent, I'd consider that to be wrong. In any case, they would fit under the definition of bisexual, and maybe hetero-romantic, I suppose. But they can label themselves however they wan't.

(19-07-2017 07:21 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  There seem to me to be a lot of men who don't fall within the category of "gay" and lead heterosexual lifestyles but to some extent engage in "gay" practices.

Again, that sounds like bisexual. And again, I don't know what a "heterosexual lifestyle" is, especially in the context of someone who practices homosexual sex.

(19-07-2017 07:21 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  In some cultures, such as the one I live in, in the Near East, it is common practice for men to have sex with each other and no one would call them gay. I've invented a new term for them to show they engage in homosexual practices purely for enjoyment but are actually "straight". It's "Graight". I like it because, instead of being a nasty "put down" it can be applied to anyone without them having to explain if they are "gay", "bi", "bi-curious" and then being pigeon holed.

I don't view "gay" as a nasty put down, and a lot of people in my region have moved away from that antiquated idea, too. I can understand that your culture is different, and if you need to come up with a new way to define someone who has homosexual sex in order to avoid discrimination and violence, then yes- do that. But it doesn't exactly change the culture around you and eventually that new term will become the next "put down".

(19-07-2017 07:21 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I think the LGBTQ tag is a bit silly, as is the notion of "coming out". Everyone is on a spectrum, physically, mentally and sociologically and it's impossible to distill sexuality down into a few neat categories. If we keep adding letters for different orientations, it will use up the entire alphabet.

That is why I am now also advocating the use of a new term for gender equality which takes all sexual orientations into account, is non-judgmental and can't be used to demean someone or invade their privacy. It's WFB... "whatever floats your boat".

There have been other terms suggested, such as "Gender and Sexual Minority", or GSM for short. I personally don't think that this WFB label is really relevant or ultimately helpful in addressing the concerns of marginalized people in the long run. But it is the general attitude that I think most people should take.

(19-07-2017 07:21 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Ultimately, yes, there are a spectrum of sexual predispostions with many causes and the reason we limit talking about them to just LBGTQ is as a result of social and political issues which make people not want to talk about their sexual orientation. It is not reflective of reality.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. It sounds like you're saying that people talking about their LGBTQ status because of social and political issues in their region that make it an unsafe environment to do so?

If that's what you're saying, then I'd agree. In some places the environment is hostile toward LGBTQ people. And I would likely not be open about my status either in those situations. I'd be very selective about who could know.

But, it's usually the behavior and actions that people disagree with rather than the label. My transition from male to female is not something I'd discuss openly in many places around the world.

(20-07-2017 11:50 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(19-07-2017 07:21 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  ... as a result of social and political issues which make people not want to talk about their sexual orientation. It is not reflective of reality.

Nope. I have not even the slightest of "concerns" about discussing my sexuality, nor the sexuality of others, or their discussion about it. Why should I? We are what we are. I really don't have any innate "right" to question the morals or ethics of what other people do in their bedrooms providing it doesn't impinge on what I do in my bedroom.

I agree- except that I would add:
any innate "right" to question the morals or ethics of what other people do in their bedrooms providing it doesn't impinge on what I do in my bedroom and all parties have consented. Otherwise it'd be rape, and that is both illegal and immoral.
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20-07-2017, 02:48 PM
RE: Born This Way?
Honestly?
I don't know. Just been reading the whole thread and many sensible arguments come up. Yes, you are what you are and what ever floats your boat or makes you happy, is you business and prerogative.
I get that a good deal are indeed born gay, in a wrong body, whatever label folks deem fancy to stick on the subject and I am real glad that these people get a chance and opportunity to be(come) themselves, but I also get that strange feeling that these days it is trendy to become transgender, gay, bi, switch, turn back again (I honestly do not know all the correct terms, sorry) etc.... It is almost as if people get out of bed, stand in front of the mirror and think;"What shall I be today?". I experienced a similar "trend", where many became bisexual all of a sudden during the late 90's.
I do think that much is imposed on people, either because it is trendy, out of political correctness or by lack of shocking, rebellious or attention seeking alternatives.
When I look at the entire gender-discussion here in Sweden it is nothing but absurd. We are up to 72 genders and even have professors in gender-science. Madness.

Maybe it is my preconditioned roman catholic mind, but when I see articles, where completely outfitted drag queens are introduced to kindergardens to read kids stories and tell them about being drag queens and related topics, my gut tells me that that is going to far.
And I have to confess that I am not as openminded as I thought I was. There are limits for me on this topic. Reading up on it, like here, helps me to understand, but deep inside there is a resistance as indicated by the example I mentioned.

@ Emma; I once met a guy, who went through a similar process as you have, but that was in the early 90's. The man in question was well on his way to hitting 50, when he decided he was no longer a he, but a she really. Unfortunately it ruined his/her marriage, despite his wife being supportive. He lost his business too, sadly and I have no idea what became of him/her. I surely do hope you will fare better!

But I do know that if one of my kids came up to me and told me he/she was gay, I'd have to take a deep breath before given them a hug, hoping they'll be happy no matter what and be ok with it. I would love them no less for it.
But if I would have the idea they would fall in the category I mentioned second, I'd have a heart to heart talk with them.
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20-07-2017, 03:09 PM
RE: Born This Way?
Hi Ron, thanks for sharing!

Can you please tell me why you think being transgender is trendy? If it's because a lot of people are coming out as trans, is it possible that it's because it's become more socially acceptable in the last 5 years or so- so more people are open and willing to talk about it openly?

Also, that's the first I've heard of having drag queens talk about doing drag to children. Consider That's... strange I guess.

Regarding that person you met in the past, I know that if I were that person, I'd hope you would use the pronouns that I had shown to be my preferred. In my case, please please please do not talk about me as "he/she" or "him/her" to other people. The pronouns "she/her" would be appreciated. That's not a chastisement or a demand or anything, just a request. I'll refer to that person as "she" because she transitioned to live as a woman.

As for her loss of marriage and business- it's a sad fact that many trans people lose their spouses as a result of the transition. Marriages often cannot withstand the amount of change. And unless your spouse is bisexual then there's a good chance that they won't be attracted to you after you transition. Plus there's a whole lot of other issues that come up, and society is still not entirely accepting of trans people- let alone how things were more than two decades ago.

And discrimination can make it hard to keep a job. It must be difficult to keep a business if you have to rely on customers or clients that might be bigoted about you transitioning.

I hope that she was able to make a new life and be happy! Smile
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20-07-2017, 03:15 PM
RE: Born This Way?
(20-07-2017 03:09 PM)Emma Wrote:  Also, that's the first I've heard of having drag queens talk about doing drag to children. Consider That's... strange I guess.

Not any weirder than having Christians talk to kids and inflict their bullshit. Probably substantially better in fact. At least a transgender speaker is going to most probably start a discussion on inclusiveness.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-07-2017, 03:37 PM
RE: Born This Way?
(20-07-2017 03:15 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(20-07-2017 03:09 PM)Emma Wrote:  Also, that's the first I've heard of having drag queens talk about doing drag to children. Consider That's... strange I guess.

Not any weirder than having Christians talk to kids and inflict their bullshit. Probably substantially better in fact. At least a transgender speaker is going to most probably start a discussion on inclusiveness.

A trans speaker I get, but a drag queen is different than a trans person. They can be the same, but drag is typically for performance (as opposed to cross-dressing, which is generally done less for performance reasons) while being trans is not a performance.
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