Born This Way?
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17-06-2017, 02:46 AM
RE: Born This Way?
The "born this way" argument carries weight with the religious because if God made you gay, then it's a bit off-sides to say being gay is a sin. That's why the religious tend to be focused on saying that it's a choice. Because then they can castigate you for being a sinner. But frankly, whether it's a choice or not, it's for that person to decide how they want to live their lives, so they can fuck right off with their discrimination.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-06-2017, 05:00 AM
RE: Born This Way?
(16-06-2017 07:27 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  they just kinda got sucked into it!

(16-06-2017 08:17 PM)whateverist Wrote:  I don't think it makes a lick of difference

must... refrain....

Weeping

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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17-06-2017, 10:20 PM
RE: Born This Way?
(17-06-2017 05:00 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(16-06-2017 07:27 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  they just kinda got sucked into it!

(16-06-2017 08:17 PM)whateverist Wrote:  I don't think it makes a lick of difference

must... refrain....

Weeping


Heh heh heh, you said "home-owner" .. homo-ner, get it? Yuk, yuk, yuk.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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18-06-2017, 02:41 AM
RE: Born This Way?
(16-06-2017 08:59 AM)Emma Wrote:  I've been watching, kind of from a short distance, LGBTQ people argue among themselves about the "born this way" argument for a little while now. I've always wondered what percentage of a persons LGBTQ status is based on biological determinism vs environmental etc. I still don't think it's a "choice", but I also think many people are more fluid than rigid in their sexual and gender identities than we really acknowledge.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017...62f63bb688

Ultimately- whether people were born LGBTQ or not, equality is still a necessity and shouldn't depend on that idea.

I think a lot about it is actually society making artificial boxes that they want to put people in. The boxes are about the sex rather than the person. And it has gone so far that society likes to exclude whatever doesn't fit neatly into one of the two boxes. This is a type of fear and other than keep educating people, there isn't much we can do because this type of fear comes from the stone-age part in our brains. We fear things that are different.
So what we have to teach children from the beginning is the fact that how somebody dresses, loves, moves, or what somebody is interested in, is not something that should be feared. When it comes to the fear aspect of it, it should be on a level with hair colour and shoe size. It absolutely doesn't matter. And I think on education on that front, we are slowly getting there. Still way to go but we are getting there.

On the biological aspect. Yes I think we are born this way. Who we prefer romantically and sexually is something that we are very likely already born with. When my brothers were like 4, my mom suspected that one of them was going to be gay. He is not gay, he is bi. But you can obviously see some signs already when kids are very young. When I was a little child, I was already playing, thinking, behaving, and talking like a boy, too.
I haven't done a ton of research on other aspects of the LGBT+ but for the T in it, it is absolutely biological and has to do with hormone levels in the mother and the fetus during pregnancy. Hormone levels are influencing the fetus greatly and sometimes, after sex is determined in the fetus, the imprint phase goes a bit wacky and that is when we end up with a transgender person. (That was over simplified but I think still accurate enough?)

So yes for born this way.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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18-06-2017, 07:25 AM
RE: Born This Way?
NO ANYONE WHO THINKS PEOPLE ARE BORN GAY ARE SNOWFLAKES HURR DURR.

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18-06-2017, 07:48 AM
RE: Born This Way?
(17-06-2017 02:46 AM)morondog Wrote:  The "born this way" argument carries weight with the religious because if God made you gay, then it's a bit off-sides to say being gay is a sin. That's why the religious tend to be focused on saying that it's a choice. Because then they can castigate you for being a sinner. But frankly, whether it's a choice or not, it's for that person to decide how they want to live their lives, so they can fuck right off with their discrimination.

In my old church, they would have said if you were born that way, God gave that to you to overcome. Or to draw you closer to him as you struggle with it. What a fucked up way of thinking.

Two of the main reasons I left my church was due to the misogyny and hatred of anyone different from their way of thinking. It was a major impetus in my looking behind the curtain because none of their "god-like" teachings lined up with how I felt in my heart. How can God be love, how can God not make mistakes and then at the same time, hate his creations? How can God hate someone who is a wonderful person just for loving someone of the same sex? How can God hate a wonderful person who feels they were born into the wrong body with every fiber of their being? God supposedly knows what's in every one's hearts, knows every hair on their heads, knows how they feel, what they think. Why condemn them for wanting to be their true self? So fucked on every level.

Anyway *end rant* I'm so glad to be out of that fucking church. Yes

I agree with born that way--as your true self--whatever that entails for each person. I love brave people (and I'm not just talking about LGBT) I'm talking about anyone who lives their lives on their own terms, and tells "sheep-like" society to go fuck itself.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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18-06-2017, 08:50 AM
RE: Born This Way?
(16-06-2017 09:29 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(16-06-2017 08:59 AM)Emma Wrote:  I've been watching, kind of from a short distance, LGBTQ people argue among themselves about the "born this way" argument for a little while now. I've always wondered what percentage of a persons LGBTQ status is based on biological determinism vs environmental etc. I still don't think it's a "choice", but I also think many people are more fluid than rigid in their sexual and gender identities than we really acknowledge.

Ultimately- whether people were born LGBTQ or not, equality is still a necessity and shouldn't depend on that idea.

No argument about your "ultimately" statement, whatsoever.

That said, there's a pretty good set of evidence that the sexuality one develops is the result of epigenetic factors (influences on the way the DNA is "read" during fetal development, mainly) while the brain is wiring itself up, so to speak. People tend to think that only what is written in the DNA is what is biologically determined, but epigenetics and the maternal hormonal environment in which the DNA is read plays a powerful role in how that DNA is expressed, and as such can be said to be equally important as what's actually written in the code itself, so to speak.

See, for one example (Edit: with regard to development of sex characteristics) of these phenomena:

In mammals, once genetic sex has been determined and the fetus begins its development, the fetal environment, especially hormones, can result in significant modifications of the genetically based sex. The effect of prenatal hormones on later anatomy, physiology, and behavior are most clearly demonstrated in several animals showing the “intrauterine position effect” (vom Saal et al., 1999). In litter-bearing mammals such as mice, rats, gerbils, and pigs, each pup shares the uterus with several others, some of which are of a different sex. Significant differences among females occur if the fetus is located between two males or with a male on one side or with no male on either side. Testosterone is produced by fetal males and can masculinize adjacent females to various degrees. Thus, not only do individuals vary as a result of genetic variability, but they can also vary as a result of prenatal hormonal organizational effects (see additional discussion in Chapter 4). Extensive studies with the female mouse have revealed that adult anatomical structures, such as the genitalia and sexually dimorphic parts of the brain, and the rate of reproductive development vary as a result of proximity to males in the womb (Vandenbergh and Huggett, 1995).

Studies with animals suggest that hormonal transfer between fetuses can influence later anatomical, physiological, and behavioral characteristics. Some data from studies with humans, recently summarized by Miller (1998), suggest that a similar phenomenon occurs in mixed-sex twins. His review of the literature reveals a number of characteristics apparently influenced by transmission of testosterone from the male twin to the female twin.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK222286/

However, as I so often emphasize, there are very few black-and-whites in biology; everything is a spectrum, including sexuality, as we've known since the work done by Kinsey et al, in the 1950s. It should hardly be surprising that while heterosexuality is the norm (duh), that we should also find a broad spectrum of outcomes in the various parts of the brain that control our sense of identity and/or to wards what group(s) we're attracted, sexually.

Either way, the phenotype that develops in the adult, when the sexuality genes "switch on" during puberty, is set before the individual is born. In that sense, it's astounding to hear people continue to claim it's some sort of choice-- the anecdotal evidence alone, where so many thousands are willing to hate and even kill themselves because they want to change (usually because of the influence of religion on their social training) but cannot-- and I think we should heavily object to those who continue to push that old narrative.

I totally agree with your statements and the evidence you provided.

The way I've always looked at it is this: If it were a "choice" then I feel like I got cheated. I never got to mentally make that choice and was born hetrosexual. Living in the bible belt affords me plenty of opportunities to have discussions about this very subject. Being one of only a few Atheists on the FD I have plenty of time and people to bounce this idea off of. The most common phrase that I hear is "you chose to be gay". My counter has always been "at what age did you decide to be straight?".

The answer is almost unanimously: "I was born straight"

"Well... if you were born straight then it stands to reason that someone that falls into the LGBTQ community was born that way also". "If you didn't consciously make a choice then rational thinking must take over and deduce that the same applies to others that don't hold the same sexual orientation as you".

I realize that is a gross simplification for a complicated question but living where I live I usually have to grossly simplify things to people that are completely closed minded.

I get to decide what my life looks like, not the other way around.
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18-06-2017, 01:01 PM
RE: Born This Way?
(18-06-2017 07:48 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(17-06-2017 02:46 AM)morondog Wrote:  The "born this way" argument carries weight with the religious because if God made you gay, then it's a bit off-sides to say being gay is a sin. That's why the religious tend to be focused on saying that it's a choice. Because then they can castigate you for being a sinner. But frankly, whether it's a choice or not, it's for that person to decide how they want to live their lives, so they can fuck right off with their discrimination.

In my old church, they would have said if you were born that way, God gave that to you to overcome. Or to draw you closer to him as you struggle with it. What a fucked up way of thinking.

Two of the main reasons I left my church was due to the misogyny and hatred of anyone different from their way of thinking. It was a major impetus in my looking behind the curtain because none of their "god-like" teachings lined up with how I felt in my heart. How can God be love, how can God not make mistakes and then at the same time, hate his creations? How can God hate someone who is a wonderful person just for loving someone of the same sex? How can God hate a wonderful person who feels they were born into the wrong body with every fiber of their being? God supposedly knows what's in every one's hearts, knows every hair on their heads, knows how they feel, what they think. Why condemn them for wanting to be their true self? So fucked on every level.

Anyway *end rant* I'm so glad to be out of that fucking church. Yes

I agree with born that way--as your true self--whatever that entails for each person. I love brave people (and I'm not just talking about LGBT) I'm talking about anyone who lives their lives on their own terms, and tells "sheep-like" society to go fuck itself.

Ma soeur left church for similar reasons. They'd preach shit about what other religions believed (ETA: and what those naughty homos etc got up to and why) that she knew to be factually untrue because she had friends who were Muslim/Hindu/Atheist etc. Being her, she didn't just leave. She gave them a piece of her mind beforehand Big Grin I kinda wish I had been a fly on the wall, 'cos I'd gone to that church for a while and the pastor was a right oily bastard. It'd have been great to see him nailed to the wall publicly.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-06-2017, 01:12 PM
RE: Born This Way?
(17-06-2017 10:20 PM)whateverist Wrote:  Heh heh heh, you said "home-owner" .. homo-ner, get it? Yuk, yuk, yuk.


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18-06-2017, 03:43 PM
RE: Born This Way?
I don't know...

Human beings are so very adaptive. If one is living within this minority there is more to it than just sexual relationships. Women or men may bond for comfort and friendship, may bond to help support their children, may bond for economic reasons. The "lifestyle" may appeal to individuals, as the community may appeal to individuals.

When I think of myself, I know I could live different from what I have lived. Am I definitely a heterosexual because I have loved boys and men and married a man, whom I share a deep, loving bond? I know there are women to whom I am drawn intimately, if not necessarily sexually. Could I also form a sexual bond with such a woman if my life changed? I think I could.

At my age and situation, I am not particularly a sensual person. Could I form a platonic relationship and live in a different style and community if my life changed? I think I could.

My daughters and I often consider that we women should live without men...even though we love our men wholeheartedly. Surely men must feel the same at times. Yes?

Yes...I reason that many are "born this way" but I think the need for support and companionship makes human beings be more flexible with whom they bond. I think human beings are very adaptable and that leads me to believe that many are also "adapted this way."

Do my rambling thoughts make any sense to anyone else?

"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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