Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
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25-08-2011, 10:50 AM
Tongue Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
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*facepalm*

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“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” ~ Gautama Buddha
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25-08-2011, 11:22 AM
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
Hey Doctor...
Ever heard about this?
It explains a lot...

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25-08-2011, 11:46 AM
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
Hey, Doc.

Explain to me how forgiveness is a bad thing?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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25-08-2011, 11:50 AM
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
(25-08-2011 11:46 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Doc.

Explain to me how forgiveness is a bad thing?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Forgiveness is not a bad thing, but it's the hypocrisy of it.

Why should good people good to hell because they don't believe in Jesus?

Son of Sam killer has killed 6 people. Now he is an born again Christian. His sins can be forgiven by only accepting Jesus. While other good people like Gandhi who never killed anyone, but the only difference is that he does not accept Jesus as his savior can go to hell.

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“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” ~ Gautama Buddha
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25-08-2011, 11:59 AM
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
Can I try too Gost?

Forgiveness when granted by humans to humans is a good thing. Given the fact that it is genuine and that the forgiven is truly sorry.

However...
Telling yourself you are forgiven because a 2000 year old text says so is kind of weird. Makes you wonder whether the guy from the text above would have found God if he would not have been in jail. I plea cognitive dissonance.

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25-08-2011, 02:33 PM
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
I don't think it is a forgiveness thing.... more of a checklist sort of thing.

Person A
God: Do you believe in me?
Me: No...
God: Strait to hell... enjoy the music!!

Person B
God: Do you believe in me?
Christian: Yes...
God: Wonderful!!... worship me forever, your sins are forgiven.
Christian: Woopy!!

Believe first... forgiveness second. As long as you get the first one right the second is irrelevant. Forgiveness is great... to bad God just can't do it unconditionally.

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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25-08-2011, 02:42 PM
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
Matt, it's not the forgiveness we're bothered with. It's what is unforgivable. If god forgave everything, I'd maybe have a problem with not offering some incentive to not be a genocidal madman, but whatever. It's not like Hitler's going to hurt anyone in Heaven, so whatever.

The problem lies with the Ghandi dilemma. Few men gave up more to help their fellow man. He was quite possibly the single most kind and selfless human being of the last century, with doubt only left for those who might have been less well known. And yet he didn't believe in Jesus. So his crime of... uhm... being... human, I guess... damns him to hell for eternity.

I don't mind a heaven with Hitler. I despise a heaven without Ghandi.
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25-08-2011, 03:11 PM
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
Also if you look at it from a historical\theological way it makes since.

Christianity was a religion based on "correct gnosis", one of the first, not acts. Before the Christian religion polytheist just had to perform sacrifices... to any God they wanted. They could "make up" any God they wanted and interact with these gods however they wished... as long as they made sacrifices to them and the "state" sanctioned Gods. Enter Christianity... sacrifices are out, there is only one God and one way to "think" about him. (This is a major reason early Christians were persecuted... they would not make sacrifices to the Gods. So when a drought came who was to blame... the Christians who refused to make sacrifices!! ) To think correctly is orthodox, to think wrong is heresy. Correct gnosis is the highest tenet of the religion. Forgiveness is way down the list and acts don't even make it on the list. You get the forgiveness when you believe, you can't get it if you don't. As stated before it is conditional forgiveness, and for me, a tale tale sign of human BS.

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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25-08-2011, 03:20 PM
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
Now hang on here. The implication I am reading (or mis-reading perhaps?) is that christians believe all is forgiven by simply going to heaven and saying to god, "Hey man, my bad for being a mass murderer. I believe in you dude" and gods reply will be, "well shit. In that case, c'mon in and join the party!" I don't think that's the case. From the christians I know, they (for the most part) believe that god forgives the person who is truly sorry. They don't think they can be a mass murderer and then waltz into heaven just because they say they're sorry. In fact, they mostly believe that the way to heaven is through being good to others, not by saying sorry to god. Remember when you speak in generalities, you are speaking about the majority, not the few fanatics.

I do think that the whole concept is silly, but why be angry that Berkowitz believes he's going to heaven? It won't diminish his much deserved suffering here (I truly hope he gets ass raped with a pine tree on a nightly basis) and it's not like he's actually going to heaven. I mean seriously, it's almost like you guys are pissed that he thinks he's going somewhere that you don't believe exists! lol The thinking is flawed. We all see that. But Ghandi isn't being denied entry to heaven because he's not a christian. He's being denied entry to heaven because it's not there. Same as hitler, my kids, the dude that lives down the street, your local pastor, and your mom.

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25-08-2011, 03:24 PM
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
(25-08-2011 02:42 PM)Sines Wrote:  I don't mind a heaven with Hitler. I despise a heaven without Ghandi.

I would completely agree, except that this is no evidence of such a place as Heaven or Hell. We make fun of the Christians for this clearly contradictive thinking (Satan believes God is who He says He is, and yet is destined for Hell) but it won't win Christians' minds by claiming that God has a bad sense of justice.

However, if a Heaven and Hell did exist, Ghandi would belong there. Let's at least do what we can do for his "eternal life" by spreading the story of what a good man Ghandi was and why peaceful protest for the cause of the oppressed is such a virtue.

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