Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
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25-08-2011, 09:03 PM
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
(25-08-2011 07:15 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Doc.

You have no idea whether I'm in the minority or not, I can't comprehend how I'm in the anything because I haven't stated a belief, I've just reported that there is variation among Christians and while some do consider such things heresy, plenty of Christians agree. They believe that the central message of Jesus is love, not punishment. What are their numbers? Neither of us knows. But to say that all Christians believe that everyone that does not know Jesus, for whatever reason, is going to hell, is demonstrably false. That point is beyond contention.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

A quick search on Google can give you an answer. Right now under Christian theology if you don't believe in Christ you will go to hell.





http://fillthevoid.org/Apologetics/Quest...evers.html

Quote:Christians often say, "if you believe in Jesus you go to Heaven; if you don't believe in Jesus you go to Hell". Is that true? Well, it is true, but it doesn't communicate a sense of the true circumstance. It's not coherent to most people because it just seems bizarre why what one person thought about some guy who died 2000 years ago has anything to do with their eternal destiny. Whether they believe in him or not seems irrelevant to anything that might happen after we die. So we have often not been careful to communicate the sense of things.
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5098

Christians on Bob Bells ideals:
[Image: JohnPiper.png]
http://twitter.com/#!/JohnPiper/status/4...6421863424

[Image: HarrisJosh.png]
http://twitter.com/#!/HarrisJosh/status/...0603407360

[Image: buddhasig.png]
“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” ~ Gautama Buddha
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25-08-2011, 09:38 PM
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
Doc,

You are posting opinions of those that believe that a non-belief in Christ equals hell. That is not proof that ALL christians believe that, or even that it is a part of christian beleif in general. It is simply proof that those who believe Ghandi is in hell believe Ghandi is in hell. I have proof that christians can also believe otherwise. I specifically called a christian friend, and asked whether she believes Ghandi is in hell. She does not. She believes he is in heaven, because god takes into heaven those that are good. So there you have it. Proof, as concrete as yours, that some christians believe that you can get into heaven and not be a christian.

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25-08-2011, 10:07 PM (This post was last modified: 25-08-2011 10:15 PM by Efrx86.)
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
You might be surprised at the amount of Christians (cafeteria and devout) who don't follow many of the original tenets of Christianity and/or the Bible. Many Christians don't believe in the Genesis story, hell (usually believing in purgatory instead), the virgin birth, the divinity of Jesus, etc. One of the things many anti-religionists criticize about Christians is the cherry-picking of information from the Bible. Given the kinds of verses we know all too well that are in the bible, perhaps it's not such a bad thing.

The God excuse: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument. "God did it." Anything we can't describe must have come from God. - George Carlin

Whenever I'm asked "What if you're wrong?", I always show the asker this video: http://youtu.be/iClejS8vWjo Screw Pascal's wager.
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25-08-2011, 10:32 PM
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
(25-08-2011 10:07 PM)Efrx86 Wrote:  You might be surprised at the amount of Christians (cafeteria and devout) who don't follow many of the original tenets of Christianity and/or the Bible. Many Christians don't believe in the Genesis story, hell (usually believing in purgatory instead), the virgin birth, the divinity of Jesus, etc. One of the things many anti-religionists criticize about Christians is the cherry-picking of information from the Bible. Given the kinds of verses we know all too well that are in the bible, perhaps it's not such a bad thing.

Exactly. But it smacks of even more belief without evidence than standard christianity. At least the fundie Biblical literalist has the Bible to back him up. The 'God is Love' style christians don't even have that.

It's kind of the problem I have. You want to not be a biblical literalist? Fine. But then where DO you get your theology? If you don't get it from scientifically verifiable evidence, or from the primary text of your religion... then what is left? Seriously. I'm going to keep believing what I do Matt until you can give me a reason to think your beliefs are at least as well founded as Fred Phelps. Not that his are that well founded, but it's not just him believing what he wants and calling himself a christian. He at least has some outside authority that he accepts.

If you want me to change my mind, Matt, tell me why you believe in Yahweh (You do, right? I don't think you've ever actually come out and said it, but that appears to be the case. If your not, I'd like one example of someone else who fits my request), the god of christianity. Also tell me exactly what you think of the bible. If you can justify yourself at least as well as a biblical literalist, I'll change my mind. But as far as I've ever seen, every moderate christian just believes basically whatever they like, and call themselves christian. Even when ignoring and or even outright denying the validity of the teachings of Jesus.
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25-08-2011, 11:40 PM (This post was last modified: 25-08-2011 11:59 PM by Efrx86.)
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
I guess the point behind Stark's and Ghost's posts is that people shouldn't incur in the No True Scotsman fallacy and determine what all Christians do or believe based on what some individuals or groups do. At this point in history people can be Christian by simply calling themselves christian and that's it. By saying all Christians behave or must behave according to what the bible or a particular sect says we're committing the same mistake that many people do when they claim that atheism is the assertion that there is no god (which is actually "strong atheism", a subset of atheism) to make it look like a faith position.

The God excuse: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument. "God did it." Anything we can't describe must have come from God. - George Carlin

Whenever I'm asked "What if you're wrong?", I always show the asker this video: http://youtu.be/iClejS8vWjo Screw Pascal's wager.
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26-08-2011, 12:01 AM
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
(25-08-2011 11:40 PM)Efrx86 Wrote:  I guess the point behind Stark's and Ghost's posts is that people shouldn't incur into the No True Scotsman fallacy and determine what all Christians do or believe based on what some individuals or groups do. At this point in history people can be Christian by simply calling themselves christian and that's it. By saying all Christians behave or must behave according to what the bible or a particular sect says we're committing the same mistake that many people do when they claim that atheism is the assertion that there is no god (which is actually "strong atheism", a subset of atheism) to make it look like a faith position.


I am not using the True Scotman's fallacy. I am giving Ghost a reminder that his belief is in the minority in the United States. I am surrounded by evangelicals and nearly a majority of my family thinks I am going to hell with the exception of my mother and my wife.

I do know even some Catholics believe Gandhi is not in hell because they believe god will never punish Gandhi, but since he is not a believe. Gandhi is in purgatory.

I would LOVE to see Ghost's views in the majority, but right now he is in the minority. Heck my old pastors believes I am going to hell because I committed the biggest sin. Denying god.

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“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” ~ Gautama Buddha
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26-08-2011, 08:44 AM (This post was last modified: 26-08-2011 08:47 AM by myst32.)
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
I would like to point out the we are all arguing over the same crap Paul and the apostolic fathers argued about. The Bible does not agree on this subject whatsoever. In the synoptic gospels Jesus says that is it your acts that get you into heaven....

Matthew 25 32-46

32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Then you get to John 3:16 written 80+ years later and it is all about belief in Jesus. This allows for multiple "secs" as Ghost has pointed out. The different secs have different interpretations with different concentrations in different geographical locations. In the end I have to agree with Stark... we are arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
(26-08-2011 12:01 AM)The Doctor Wrote:  Heck my old pastors believes I am going to hell because I committed the biggest sin. Denying god.

You should remind him that a large part of the world is made up of people who are equally devout and equally convinced that he is going to hell with you.

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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26-08-2011, 09:22 AM
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
Hey, Stark.

Word.

It seems to me that there are two issues here.

Is it right to forgive a mass murderer if they repent and accept Jesus? I say yes.

Is it right to assume that everyone who does not know Jesus will burn in hell? I say no. I disagree with any theology that believes that and I'm thankful that not all do.

Hey, Doc.

Thank you for contextualising your beliefs to within the US.

OK. Now where talking real talk.

Rob Bell is the pastor of an Evangelical megachurch called Mars Hill Bible Church in Grandville Michigan. And you are absolutely right. Many in the American Evangelical community are quite upset with him. But that's because he's creating a schism within the Evangelical church. Some Evangelicals denounce him as a heretic preaching false gospel, other Evangelicals embrace him. The reason this schism exists is because within Evangelical theology, the idea that Gandhi and everyone who has never heard of Jesus will burn in hell has become widespread. So if you wanna harp on the Evangelical church for forgiving a mass murderer and letting him into heaven while damning Gandhi to hell, go right ahead. All of that being said, know for fact, as demonstrated by pastor Bell, that there is a movement within the Evangelical church to move away from such theology.

It's interesting that you bring up purgatory because that proves that Catholics do not believe Gandhi is in hell. Purgatory is a place where those who do not know Jesus and those who are repentant for their sins but did not have a chance to confess (last rites) go to be purified so they can then ascend to Heaven and be in God's love. Probably not the most pleasant place, but it is certainly not hell.

So yes, it is a minority position (as far as I know) within the Evangelical church. So yes, your anecdotal experiences just happen to be accurate because you're surrounded by Evangelicals. But if we are talking about Christianity as a whole, as a category that includes over 38 000 denominations, one cannot say that the vast majority of those denominations share that part of Evangelical theology (I have no idea what the actual ratio is).

So the point is proved doubly. A schism exists within Evangelical theology and not all denominations believe that all those who do not accept Jesus, for whatever reason, regardless of their character, will go to hell.

With a little luck, Rob Bell's theology will spread within the Evangelical church.

Hey, Sines.

You harp about Biblical literalism, but the fact is, THEY are the ones in the minority, not the other way around.

Most Christian theology is based on interpretations of the Bible. Accept it. Call it cherry picking, call it eveidencelss, call it stupid, it's what is. Any theories that fail to accept that are simply rejecting observation.

Now. I really don't know what you're saying about beliefs because I haven't expressed any. I find that truly puzzling. To answer your question, I am an Agnostic.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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26-08-2011, 10:02 AM
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
(26-08-2011 08:44 AM)myst32 Wrote:  You should remind him that a large part of the world is made up of people who are equally devout and equally convinced that he is going to hell with you.

Their response is mainly: "This is why we have missionaries around the world to save their souls to Christ."

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“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” ~ Gautama Buddha
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26-08-2011, 12:36 PM
RE: Born again logic with "Son of Sam" Killer
(26-08-2011 10:02 AM)The Doctor Wrote:  Their response is mainly: "This is why we have missionaries around the world to save their souls to Christ."

heheheh to which I would reply "As do they to save yours.... if only you would open your eyes and see the glory they see".

I love pitting religion against religion. It's like arguing over who would win if Santa Clause and the Ester Bunny got in a fight. The Easter bunny is fast... Santa Is bigger.. the Easter Bunny can shit out Easter eggs a use them as projectiles... on and on...

Ahh good times..

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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