Botched Lethal Injections in the US
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28-07-2014, 01:17 AM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 09:31 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  So the fact that the Death Penalty has 0 effectiveness as a deterrent should be the next thing we explore.

Quote: For 2012, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.7, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.7

For 2011, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.7, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.1

For 2010, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.6, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.9

For 2009, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.9, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.8

For 2008, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 5.2, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.3

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-r...tate#MRord

Aaaaaaaand...
Correlation is not causation. You cannot validly draw the conclusion you are drawing from the data you are showing.

Look again at that list. That order looks more like a ranking of states by education and income.
One can just as easily draw the conclusion that having the death penalty is the reaction to the violence, and that the murder rates would have been worse in those states without it.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-07-2014, 01:19 AM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 09:09 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(27-07-2014 08:59 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Could we please stop talking about the costs as if any of us would change our respective opinions on the death penalty if the statistics were to change? If 10 years from now it's cheaper to execute than to house, I'll still be for the DP, and some people will still be against it.

As 100% of successfully executed criminals have 0% chance of ever hurting anyone again, at what point do we disregard the rights of a convicted murderer in favor of everyone else's inalienable right not to be murdered by an escaped convict who's taken his "lifer" status as a badge of honor from the moment he achieved it?

The death penalty is as benign as a butter knife until that king-shit cop, who wouldn't even let poor Rambo grab a bite to eat at a local diner... Crickets ... Crickets ..., uses either one maliciously, or incompetently! Sure rework the death penalty, and shave the serrations off the butter knife, to make both safer, but don't get rid of them; fix them, and focus on catching all those king shit cops! By all means send them to prison for however long the judge arbitrarily Dodgy decides is long enough for them to sit and think about all the bad things they've done.

But I can't jump on this bandwagon without stipulations that some exceptions be made to the " never allowed for any reason ever no matter what the circumstances" rule against executing walking talking horror movies! Some people are simply too dangerous to be allowed to stick around to manipulate, and/or influence, the thinking of the people around them, much less try to harm those around him/her.
Your not going to stop the media from wanting to interview (and inadvertently glorifying from time to time) these whack-a-loons! Everyone knows Manson's batshit crazy, but I'm talking more along the lines of a Richard 'The IceMan' Kuklinski. Smug answers, and self-satisfied smirks of win, while talking about how many people they killed? If even one person (on the OUTSIDE) finds that shit "cool", and wants to be like "that guy", it's one too many. And I'm not even saying Kuklinski would be a candidate for the new and greatly improved system for applying the death penalty, but some people simply! need! to! go! Until we create a penal colony on a moon somewhere so we can ship them the hell off, and away, from the people I know, and care about, I'll be for the death penalty. Sorry.

*Ballot Box for dropping in your vote for/against death penalty right next to Guard Duty sign up sheet for Hannibal Lecter*
*Ballot Box full*
*Guard Duty sign up sheet empty* Undecided

But if the feels is too strong with these ones to acknowledge that any " never for any reason ever " rule is an unreasonable one I do have a condition, that if met, could sway me to jump on this bandwagon....

We simultaneously do away with the euthanization of all dogs everywhere no matter what they did to the neighbor kid! Big Grin Hey dogs are people, too, man, dogs are people too Sadcryface , and they are ALL innocent of premeditated malicious intent!!! Kibbles-n-Bits can't be that expensive, people!

Tongue

Was there a point to that rambling?

He is making the same point as I have - that the absolute answer is un-nuanced and simplistic.

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28-07-2014, 03:02 AM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(28-07-2014 01:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-07-2014 09:09 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Was there a point to that rambling?

He is making the same point as I have - that the absolute answer is un-nuanced and simplistic.

No his point was no amount of data could change his position. It is a sacred cow to him and is not based on logic. Oh and my entire point with those numbers earlier was there is no correlations between the death penalty and a lower murder rate.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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28-07-2014, 07:30 AM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 09:24 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  My position actually would possibly shift if I had all the information and saw that the death penalty cost more than life imprisonment (Although that scenario would really point out how ridiculous our "justice system" is).

Perhaps now would be a good time, then, to consider the legal systems in similar countries. The United States and Japan are the only two nations in the OECD to practise capital punishment. The United States is by far the largest practitioner of life imprisonment without parole.

(27-07-2014 09:24 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  And CJLR, no I didn't read the entire link that covered the data on 50 states (I apologize, but I really don't want to spend my time reading the data on 50 different states just to see if what you guys are saying is true.). I skimmed a few states and then went to read the data on my state to form an example meaningful to me. Also, the 60 years came from Rev's declaration that the DP cases cost more than housing a prisoner for 60+ years.

My apologies; I missed Rev's statement. It's still statistically irrelevant; an adult who commits a crime will not live 60+ years in prison in any but the most outlying conditions.
(life expectancy in the US being less than 80 years to begin with, and most life-term prisoners being men, poor, and in prison, all factors which will decrease life expectancy)

(27-07-2014 09:24 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  As for California's data, let me see...The numbers show overall program costs, but they don't really describe very well why the cost is higher than a non Death Penalty case. In my lack of interest in spending my Sunday reading this information, I'll give the data there a temporary pass and just assume the results are correct.

Well, we could denigrate the only actual data presented and keep arguing to feels and hypotheticals. Or we could accept it for the purposes of discussion at the very least, which you grant.

There are two factors. California has one of the more expensive prison systems (ie cost per prisoner incarcerated). And, California has the most extensive system of appeals for those sentenced to capital punishment.

(27-07-2014 09:24 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  And with that I'll say that's definitely information that I never knew about, and it gives me something to think about. Mostly that the entire system in California needs a huge amount of reform if the death penalty incurs so much more cost than a non- death penalty case. But ultimately, while I think it is fair to kill a killer, I don't think there is much sense in spending more to do so than it would cost to incarcerate them for life. I also don't think in an efficient and solid legal system it would cost more. I do still think as a deterrent it is a powerful statement to give the death penalty for first degree murder (at least). But if the cost of doing so greatly outweighs the cost of not doing it (in some places), the burden that falls on society is probably not worth it in the current system (in some places).

There are data to suggest it is more expensive (it incurs additional expenses in all jurisdictions). There are data to suggest it is not a deterrent. And of course, there are no backsies on execution if it turns out to be the wrong person.

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28-07-2014, 07:37 AM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(28-07-2014 03:02 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(28-07-2014 01:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  He is making the same point as I have - that the absolute answer is un-nuanced and simplistic.

No his point was no amount of data could change his position. It is a sacred cow to him and is not based on logic. Oh and my entire point with those numbers earlier was there is no correlations between the death penalty and a lower murder rate.

Well, yes. The other arguments are window dressing. The justification for killing people is I want them killed. End of story. If so, just own it.

And you know what? That's fine. That's a valid opinion. That's how some people's moral reasoning weighs out - and one can't call it illogical just because it's proceeding from different precepts. The difference is that one can't argue to moral precepts.

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28-07-2014, 04:44 PM (This post was last modified: 28-07-2014 04:52 PM by TheGulegon.)
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
At the time I wrote it, I thought I'd scored a couple style points for the First Blood reference in a Death Penalty thread, and Guley's patented awful humor at the end, but I was on a few rum-n-cokes. Reading back over it, though, I thought I saw a few points that'd be worth consideration before being dismissed out of hand, but I've been wrong before.
Those points were supposed to culminate in the expression of my feeling as if I'm standing here on my stance on the Death Penalty, seeing zealots who want to throw every jaywalker into a lava pit no matter the circumstances when I look right, and seeing fundamentalists who don't want the death penalty ever never never ever used regardless of the consequences when I look left, and shaking my head in exasperation.
My stance being that the death penalty should be kept around as an extraordinarily rarely used anymore, but still on the table, viable option left to the state to use on certain individuals. Those once in a lifetime nightmares that don't stop planning on how best to hurt and kill as many of the people around them that get close enough, and slip up, simply because they've been removed from a civilian population. And guards and nurses DO slip up. I'm not worried about when they slip up around your average run of the mill spouse killer, I'm worried about when it happens within reach of the Satan incarnates!
And since MY pretty person isn't going to sign up to feed the beast, or uncuff it when it needs to take a crap, I'm not going to bring about a situation that requires that someone else do so in my stead.
So, yes, that stance that looks to me (and as ever, I could be wrong) to be in between 2 extremes is the one I'm sticking with, and I'll "own up" to wanting to kill a true monster before it can hurt anymore people than it already has. But you'll have to admit there are some (no one here, not an attack) people who wish the Death Penalty done away with that could care less how many nurses and guards were maimed, or even killed, so long as we didn't "sink" to the super-murderer's bind/torcher/rape/kill level by humanely executing him/her!
Feel free to tell me if my stance is unreasonable! Just don't be surprised if I continue to be unreasonable afterwards Tongue

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28-07-2014, 05:05 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(28-07-2014 04:44 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  At the time I wrote it, I thought I'd scored a couple style points for the First Blood reference in a Death Penalty thread, and Guley's patented awful humor at the end, but I was on a few rum-n-cokes. Reading back over it, though, I thought I saw a few points that'd be worth consideration before being dismissed out of hand, but I've been wrong before.
Those points were supposed to culminate in the expression of my feeling as if I'm standing here on my stance on the Death Penalty, seeing zealots who want to throw every jaywalker into a lava pit no matter the circumstances when I look right, and seeing fundamentalists who don't want the death penalty ever never never ever used regardless of the consequences when I look left, and shaking my head in exasperation.
My stance being that the death penalty should be kept around as an extraordinarily rarely used anymore, but still on the table, viable option left to the state to use on certain individuals. Those once in a lifetime nightmares that don't stop planning on how best to hurt and kill as many of the people around them that get close enough, and slip up, simply because they've been removed from a civilian population. And guards and nurses DO slip up. I'm not worried about when they slip up around your average run of the mill spouse killer, I'm worried about when it happens within reach of the Satan incarnates!
And since MY pretty person isn't going to sign up to feed the beast, or uncuff it when it needs to take a crap, I'm not going to bring about a situation that requires that someone else do so in my stead.
So, yes, that stance that looks to me (and as ever, I could be wrong) to be in between 2 extremes is the one I'm sticking with, and I'll "own up" to wanting to kill a true monster before it can hurt anymore people than it already has. But you'll have to admit there are some (no one here, not an attack) people who wish the Death Penalty done away with that could care less how many nurses and guards were maimed, or even killed, so long as we didn't "sink" to the super-murderer's bind/torcher/rape/kill level by humanely executing him/her!
Feel free to tell me if my stance is unreasonable! Just don't be surprised if I continue to be unreasonable afterwards Tongue

If we went to the system you propose it would be a violation of those prisoners 8th amendment rights. As it would be cruel and unusual punishment. That is the problem. It fails on every conceivable level as a deterrent or as a cost cutting issue and it has killed innocent people. Frankly that is the one fact that supersedes you boogieman problem. Innocent people have been killed. Our entire justice system is based around the idea that it is better for 100 guilty men to go free than an innocent man to be imprisoned. How is it that you have more of a problem with a Guard who is well informed as to his risk and is trained to protect himself dying yet an innocent man being executed bears no weight?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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28-07-2014, 05:22 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(28-07-2014 04:44 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  My stance being that the death penalty should be kept around as an extraordinarily rarely used anymore, but still on the table, viable option left to the state to use on certain individuals. Those once in a lifetime nightmares that don't stop planning on how best to hurt and kill as many of the people around them that get close enough, and slip up, simply because they've been removed from a civilian population. And guards and nurses DO slip up. I'm not worried about when they slip up around your average run of the mill spouse killer, I'm worried about when it happens within reach of the Satan incarnates!

I can... almost see sense in that. But it seems predicated on both several assumptions about human nature (is there anyone like that? the impulsively violent and the calculatedly violent are dealt with very differently) and several assumptions about the nature of incarceration ("well, in our shitty American prisons" is not an argument). After all, consider Norway - do you really think Brievik is going to, for lack of a better word, get "loose" and cause further harm?

(28-07-2014 04:44 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  And since MY pretty person isn't going to sign up to feed the beast, or uncuff it when it needs to take a crap, I'm not going to bring about a situation that requires that someone else do so in my stead. So, yes, that stance that looks to me (and as ever, I could be wrong) to be in between 2 extremes is the one I'm sticking with, and I'll "own up" to wanting to kill a true monster before it can hurt anymore people than it already has.

I don't think dehumanisation is helpful...

(28-07-2014 04:44 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  But you'll have to admit there are some (no one here, not an attack) people who wish the Death Penalty done away with that could care less how many nurses and guards were maimed, or even killed, so long as we didn't "sink" to the super-murderer's bind/torcher/rape/kill level by humanely executing him/her!
Feel free to tell me if my stance is unreasonable! Just don't be surprised if I continue to be unreasonable afterwards Tongue

Citation needed on "nurses and guards [being] maimed, or even killed" by high security inmates. And if the argument is a general, "well, mistakes happen", then that must be considered in reverse: the life of the occasional innocent is the price of capital punishment.

It isn't unreasonable. It's simply a view which proceeds from precepts I don't share.

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28-07-2014, 05:51 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
How many "supposed" serial killers have we executed that later turned out to be innocent? I'm just choosing Dahmer by default, but was there any doubt in his case? I don't know, but I would think that case would difficult to get wrong given the number of bodies that were found. To my knowledge, he wasn't violent toward his captors, though, so obviously there'd be no need to put him down, but surely we could agree on a number of prison staff being assaulted in a manner that was obviously meant to kill that would be enough for a "we've had enough" clause that only applied to the ultra-violent murderers. "We took all the precautions we could" isn't something I'd ever want to hear.

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28-07-2014, 05:54 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(28-07-2014 05:51 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  How many "supposed" serial killers have we executed that later turned out to be innocent? I'm just choosing Dahmer by default, but was there any doubt in his case? I don't know, but I would think that case would difficult to get wrong given the number of bodies that were found. To my knowledge, he wasn't violent toward his captors, though, so obviously there'd be no need to put him down, but surely we could agree on a number of prison staff being assaulted in a manner that was obviously meant to kill that would be enough for a "we've had enough" clause that only applied to the ultra-violent murderers. "We took all the precautions we could" isn't something I'd ever want to hear.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocenc...th-penalty

Far too many.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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