Botched Lethal Injections in the US
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26-07-2014, 12:21 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(26-07-2014 12:10 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(26-07-2014 11:40 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Consider

Some people just really like vengeance.

No it sucks as a tool for vengeance. I wouldn't want the state settling my score. How is letting some fucker sit on death row for 20 years wasting millions of dollars in legal fees only to be put down like a dog at the vet vengeance?

If this person harmed somebody I love and we were going the punitive route, I'd want to be handed a tire iron and told "he's all yours." That's not going to ever happen. The government is imposing it's will on the situation, that's not vengeance for the victims.
Would true vengeance ever be truly possible in that kind of situation?


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26-07-2014, 12:39 PM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2014 01:04 PM by TheGulegon.)
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(26-07-2014 11:40 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(26-07-2014 11:23 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  So what's the fucking point?

Consider

Some people just really like vengeance.

I know that this is only my personal opinion, but would you agree humanely executing a criminal might not satisfy a need for revenge nearly as much as imprisoning them in a place where the probability is high that they will be raped and tortured?

Also, and this is simply my opinion...

Felons sentenced to life behind bars also take up legal resources, and tie up appeals lawyers, sometimes in hopes of simply finding a procedural mistake made by police, in order to be released on a technicality, not just those on death row! But I don't want to be rid of prisons simply because innocents might be imprisoned within.

Maybe the application process for inclusion into prisons, AND death row need be looked at before completely abolishing the institutions all together.
Potheads stay out of prison, and only those felons psychiatrists fear might kill their cellmate in their sleep, and eat their corpse, be put down?

To quote Chas, 'some people just need killing' Tongue I can't remember your exact words, Chas, my bad.

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26-07-2014, 01:18 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(26-07-2014 12:39 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  
(26-07-2014 11:40 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Consider

Some people just really like vengeance.

I know that this is only my personal opinion, but would you agree humanely executing a criminal might not satisfy a need for revenge nearly as much as imprisoning them in a place where the probability is high that they will be raped and tortured?

Also, and this is simply my opinion...

Felons sentenced to life behind bars also take up legal resources, and tie up appeals lawyers, sometimes in hopes of simply finding a procedural mistake made by police, in order to be released on a technicality, not just those on death row! But I don't want to be rid of prisons simply because innocents might be imprisoned within.

Maybe the application process for inclusion into prisons, AND death row need be looked at before completely abolishing the institutions all together.
Potheads stay out of prison, and only those felons psychiatrists fear might kill their cellmate in their sleep, and eat their corpse, be put down?

To quote Chas, 'some people just need killing' Tongue I can't remember your exact words, Chas, my bad.

I think you got it. Thumbsup

In my opinion, there are people who are so dangerous that execution is the prudent course of action.

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26-07-2014, 02:20 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(26-07-2014 12:39 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  I know that this is only my personal opinion, but would you agree humanely executing a criminal might not satisfy a need for revenge nearly as much as imprisoning them in a place where the probability is high that they will be raped and tortured?

I also don't believe in creating institutions that permit and encourage rape and torture.

So there's that.

"It's better to kill someone than subject them to our shitty prisons" is not a justification for capital punishment, unless you are also fully endorsing the idea that prisons be such shitty places - which can also be nothing but purely punitive justice.

(26-07-2014 12:39 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Also, and this is simply my opinion...

Felons sentenced to life behind bars also take up legal resources, and tie up appeals lawyers, sometimes in hopes of simply finding a procedural mistake made by police, in order to be released on a technicality, not just those on death row! But I don't want to be rid of prisons simply because innocents might be imprisoned within.

No, that's true. Mistakes are inevitable, because justice is a human institution. There are false positives (conviction of innocents) and false negatives (acquittal of guilty parties), and even under the most ideal conditions the rates will approach but never equal zero.

That's not an argument for or against any type of justice system or policy, though.

(26-07-2014 12:39 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Maybe the application process for inclusion into prisons, AND death row need be looked at before completely abolishing the institutions all together.
Potheads stay out of prison, and only those felons psychiatrists fear might kill their cellmate in their sleep, and eat their corpse, be put down?

Every conviction and sentence is supposed to be ironclad - beyond all reasonable doubt.

If a prisoner is a risk to their cellmates, don't put them with a cellmate.

(26-07-2014 12:39 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  To quote Chas, 'some people just need killing' Tongue I can't remember your exact words, Chas, my bad.

Yes, that's certainly an opinion.

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26-07-2014, 02:28 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(26-07-2014 12:10 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  No it sucks as a tool for vengeance. I wouldn't want the state settling my score. How is letting some fucker sit on death row for 20 years wasting millions of dollars in legal fees only to be put down like a dog at the vet vengeance?

If this person harmed somebody I love and we were going the punitive route, I'd want to be handed a tire iron and told "he's all yours." That's not going to ever happen. The government is imposing it's will on the situation, that's not vengeance for the victims.

I realize that, but consider the likes of KC's initial comment (which he "doesn't want to discuss"). People deserve certain treatment. Does it then matter who delivers it? Perhaps to some, but I would suspect not to others. And some are perfectly happy with state-sanctioned and committed retribution (perhaps because the alternative to satisfying those impulses is vigilantism, aka forgoing rule of law - not something most people are too keen on!).

If someone harmed someone I love, I would want to be sure they couldn't do the same thing to anyone else. In theory killing them accomplishes this, but in theory life imprisonment also accomplishes this, as thoroughly and permanently. This being real life nothing approaches the theoretical ideal...

But then I'm back to my initial comment. I don't get vengeance. Don't care for it; wouldn't want it. That's just how I'm wired - because that's one of several moral bases which vary statistically in human populations, and that's how my nature and nurture happened to fall out.

Now, disagreement is then inevitable, but simultaneously, arguing to innate moral foundations is by definition unproductive. That's why this can be an interesting (or frustrating!) conversation - because we have to find a common ground to speak to first.

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26-07-2014, 04:01 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
People "deserve" certain treatment. Interesting concept...

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26-07-2014, 04:35 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(26-07-2014 04:01 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  People "deserve" certain treatment. Interesting concept...

It's hardly a new one. It's implicit in all moral reasoning.

If there are methods by which ought is derived, certain actions ought to have certain responses.

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26-07-2014, 07:19 PM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2014 10:02 PM by TheGulegon.)
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(26-07-2014 02:20 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(26-07-2014 12:39 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  I know that this is only my personal opinion, but would you agree humanely executing a criminal might not satisfy a need for revenge nearly as much as imprisoning them in a place where the probability is high that they will be raped and tortured?

I also don't believe in creating institutions that permit and encourage rape and torture.

So there's that.

"It's better to kill someone than subject them to our shitty prisons" is not a justification for capital punishment, unless you are also fully endorsing the idea that prisons be such shitty places - which can also be nothing but purely punitive justice.

(26-07-2014 12:39 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Also, and this is simply my opinion...

Felons sentenced to life behind bars also take up legal resources, and tie up appeals lawyers, sometimes in hopes of simply finding a procedural mistake made by police, in order to be released on a technicality, not just those on death row! But I don't want to be rid of prisons simply because innocents might be imprisoned within.

No, that's true. Mistakes are inevitable, because justice is a human institution. There are false positives (conviction of innocents) and false negatives (acquittal of guilty parties), and even under the most ideal conditions the rates will approach but never equal zero.

That's not an argument for or against any type of justice system or policy, though.

(26-07-2014 12:39 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Maybe the application process for inclusion into prisons, AND death row need be looked at before completely abolishing the institutions all together.
Potheads stay out of prison, and only those felons psychiatrists fear might kill their cellmate in their sleep, and eat their corpse, be put down?

Every conviction and sentence is supposed to be ironclad - beyond all reasonable doubt.

If a prisoner is a risk to their cellmates, don't put them with a cellmate.

(26-07-2014 12:39 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  To quote Chas, 'some people just need killing' Tongue I can't remember your exact words, Chas, my bad.

Yes, that's certainly an opinion.

I don't believe in creating institutions that permit and encourage rape, and torture, either, but there are super-max-security prisons that exist right now that are that way regardless of our wishes. So there's those. And at least one serial killer that could have been put down painlessly was instead bludgeoned to death in one. At which time (I'm only guessing) those who wished revenge on him rejoiced that he died horribly.

But the point I was trying to make (poorly, as always) is that not all people who propose keeping the death penalty around do so from some emotionally driven need for vengeance. It sounded suspiciously like you had lumped all of those people who do into the same category, but I could be totally mistaken. I assure you, at least for me, it's nothing personal!

*bro-hug* No homo. Tongue

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26-07-2014, 10:45 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(26-07-2014 07:19 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  I don't believe in creating institutions that permit and encourage rape, and torture, either, but there are super-max-security prisons that exist right now that are that way regardless of our wishes. So there's those.

Maybe in your primitive barbarian country. Not mine!
Tongue

(26-07-2014 07:19 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  And at least one serial killer that could have been put down painlessly was instead bludgeoned to death in one. At which time (I'm only guessing) those who wished revenge on him rejoiced that he died horribly.

True and true. But not a matter of ideals!

(26-07-2014 07:19 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  But the point I was trying to make (poorly, as always) is that not all people who propose keeping the death penalty around do so from some emotionally driven need for vengeance. It sounded suspiciously like you had lumped all of those people who do into the same category, but I could be totally mistaken. I assure you, at least for me, it's nothing personal!

*bro-hug* No homo. Tongue

No, that's fair enough. It's also a deterrent (at which it fails) and a safeguard (at which it... is a wash, so far as I interpret the statistics). The overriding motive is punitive, because the other justifications don't withstand analysis.

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26-07-2014, 10:47 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(26-07-2014 04:35 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(26-07-2014 04:01 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  People "deserve" certain treatment. Interesting concept...

It's hardly a new one. It's implicit in all moral reasoning.

If there are methods by which ought is derived, certain actions ought to have certain responses.

I agree when there is a blank slate people deserve certain treatment. But I don't agree that good treatment remains deserved regardless of what a person does.

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