Botched Lethal Injections in the US
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27-07-2014, 01:08 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 01:00 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(27-07-2014 12:53 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  There is a difference between beyond a reasonable doubt and 100% sure. That .01% (or more depending on the jury and the circumstances of the case) is a very wide gap in some cases. Video evidence along with forensic dna testing and ballistics etc can build a very airtight case but most of the time there is not such evidence.

... Double-guilty! For when we're really sure!

How in the world could one possibly define and implement such a standard?

By allowing a system of reviews by ones peers with a learned magistrate with flexibility in sentencing presiding. Perhaps we could have formal institutions to instruct those who wish to argue the merits of the case before said peers and magistrates and a chance for a person to appeal a verdict they feel was overly harsh. Now if only we could come up with a name for such a system.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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27-07-2014, 01:15 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
So I see many different lines of reasoning going on here.

1. Death penalty is not a good "solution" because there is too high of a chance (and track record) of error.
2. Death penalty is not a good "solution" because it is nothing more than revenge, (and possibly doesn't act as a deterrent).
3. Death penalty is not a good "solution" because people have certain basic rights, or should be treated a certain way.

What I'm curious is..in cases such as J. dahmer, where you basically have 100% certainty that he did in fact commit the crime, is it a viable (or acceptable) solution to execute him rather than have him sitting around eating up tax dollars for the rest of his life?

The "What if" scenario of those falsely accused or convicted is always going to be an issue for any type of "justice" because we are not perfect, and the system will never be perfect. But I'm more curious about if certain actions warrant the death sentence ever in your (whoever wants to respond) opinion? Assuming we are certain beyond a doubt that the crime actually was committed by the person who is being sentenced.

I guess my overall question is, is it the system that cannot accurately determine guilt that is the issue? Or is the act of executing another human being for their crimes the issue? Or both?

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27-07-2014, 01:17 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 01:08 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(27-07-2014 01:00 PM)cjlr Wrote:  ... Double-guilty! For when we're really sure!

How in the world could one possibly define and implement such a standard?

By allowing a system of reviews by ones peers with a learned magistrate with flexibility in sentencing presiding. Perhaps we could have formal institutions to instruct those who wish to argue the merits of the case before said peers and magistrates and a chance for a person to appeal a verdict they feel was overly harsh. Now if only we could come up with a name for such a system.

So, in order to solve the problems with the system we have, you propose the system we have? That's... an option...

A legal double standard - and that's precisely what "oh, but this time we're really sure" is - is a non-starter. Mistakes will happen, both false positives and negatives. The point of the entire legal apparatus as it already exists is to not make them. That's what appeals and review are for, and they're brought out most often for the most severe punishments - life imprisonment, and capital punishment where it exists.

I recognise the abstract possibility, but I remain totally unconvinced that there is actually any way of filtering convictions by certainty.

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27-07-2014, 01:19 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 01:17 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(27-07-2014 01:08 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  By allowing a system of reviews by ones peers with a learned magistrate with flexibility in sentencing presiding. Perhaps we could have formal institutions to instruct those who wish to argue the merits of the case before said peers and magistrates and a chance for a person to appeal a verdict they feel was overly harsh. Now if only we could come up with a name for such a system.

So, in order to solve the problems with the system we have, you propose the system we have? That's... an option...

A legal double standard - and that's precisely what "oh, but this time we're really sure" is - is a non-starter. Mistakes will happen, both false positives and negatives. The point of the entire legal apparatus as it already exists is to not make them. That's what appeals and review are for, and they're brought out most often for the most severe punishments - life imprisonment, and capital punishment where it exists.

I recognise the abstract possibility, but I remain totally unconvinced that there is actually any way of filtering convictions by certainty.

Actually if you peel back the snark what I am proposing is removing mandatory sentencing. I have always felt that does more harm than good.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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27-07-2014, 01:20 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 01:15 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  What I'm curious is..in cases such as J. dahmer, where you basically have 100% certainty that he did in fact commit the crime, is it a viable (or acceptable) solution to execute him rather than have him sitting around eating up tax dollars for the rest of his life?

And I still say that's completely unworkable. How do you quantify that certainty? How do you compare it? How do you set the thresholds?

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27-07-2014, 01:22 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
So it's the system that can never determine certain guilt that is the issue? Our own imperfection limits us from this particular punishment? How does this differ from other punishments such as life imprisonment?

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27-07-2014, 01:24 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 01:19 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Actually if you peel back the snark what I am proposing is removing mandatory sentencing. I have always felt that does more harm than good.

I'm not a fan of them either. But there are very few in Canada.

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27-07-2014, 01:24 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 01:22 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  So it's the system that can never determine certain guilt that is the issue? Our own imperfection limits us from this particular punishment? How does this differ from other punishments such as life imprisonment?

The finality of it. Once someone has been executed there is never a way to fix it. As to your other stuff funnily Dahmer was never a candidate for execution (mentally unfit to stand trial I believe). It is also markedly more expensive to employ the death penalty than life imprisonment.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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27-07-2014, 01:26 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 01:22 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  So it's the system that can never determine certain guilt that is the issue? Our own imperfection limits us from this particular punishment? How does this differ from other punishments such as life imprisonment?

It doesn't in and of itself. I don't believe in capital punishment in any case. "What if we only did it when we were really sure" is a common question/justification; one I don't find very relevant or interesting.

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27-07-2014, 01:39 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 01:26 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(27-07-2014 01:22 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  So it's the system that can never determine certain guilt that is the issue? Our own imperfection limits us from this particular punishment? How does this differ from other punishments such as life imprisonment?

It doesn't in and of itself. I don't believe in capital punishment in any case. "What if we only did it when we were really sure" is a common question/justification; one I don't find very relevant or interesting.

The fact you have to say "if we are REALLY sure" is enough for me to not support it.
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