Botched Lethal Injections in the US
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27-07-2014, 02:01 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 01:26 PM)cjlr Wrote:  It doesn't in and of itself. I don't believe in capital punishment in any case. "What if we only did it when we were really sure" is a common question/justification; one I don't find very relevant or interesting.

(27-07-2014 01:39 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  The fact you have to say "if we are REALLY sure" is enough for me to not support it.

Interesting. I find it a bit silly to have sentencing influenced by the possibility that the judgment of guilt was incorrect. If anything I could understand taking steps to make sure that the judgment was done as efficiently and truthfully as humanly possible. But the sentencing should be done based on the results of the judgment. Entertaining the thought "Well what if we REALLY aren't sure." at sentencing time after we have built a long and complex process to determine whether we are sure is redundant. Of course all is just my opinion.

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27-07-2014, 02:18 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 02:01 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(27-07-2014 01:26 PM)cjlr Wrote:  It doesn't in and of itself. I don't believe in capital punishment in any case. "What if we only did it when we were really sure" is a common question/justification; one I don't find very relevant or interesting.

(27-07-2014 01:39 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  The fact you have to say "if we are REALLY sure" is enough for me to not support it.

Interesting. I find it a bit silly to have sentencing influenced by the possibility that the judgment of guilt was incorrect. If anything I could understand taking steps to make sure that the judgment was done as efficiently and truthfully as humanly possible. But the sentencing should be done based on the results of the judgment. Entertaining the thought "Well what if we REALLY aren't sure." at sentencing time after we have built a long and complex process to determine whether we are sure is redundant. Of course all is just my opinion.

Even when we KNOW that there is a non-negligible chance that innocent people have been executed. The system is inherently racist and classist. If you are poor and black you have a 75% greater chance of facing a death sentence than if you were white and middle class regardless of case details and prior record.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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27-07-2014, 02:37 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 02:01 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(27-07-2014 01:26 PM)cjlr Wrote:  It doesn't in and of itself. I don't believe in capital punishment in any case. "What if we only did it when we were really sure" is a common question/justification; one I don't find very relevant or interesting.

(27-07-2014 01:39 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  The fact you have to say "if we are REALLY sure" is enough for me to not support it.

Interesting. I find it a bit silly to have sentencing influenced by the possibility that the judgment of guilt was incorrect. If anything I could understand taking steps to make sure that the judgment was done as efficiently and truthfully as humanly possible. But the sentencing should be done based on the results of the judgment. Entertaining the thought "Well what if we REALLY aren't sure." at sentencing time after we have built a long and complex process to determine whether we are sure is redundant. Of course all is just my opinion.

That's why appeals exist. But that's always going to occur in any justice system. False positives and false negatives. So what?

That's what I've been saying - that we're already supposed to be sure when a sentence is handed down, and there are already processes to review and revise sentences.

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27-07-2014, 05:21 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 12:47 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(27-07-2014 11:26 AM)Chas Wrote:  However, there are cases where there really is no credible possibility of a mistake.

Yes, but in theory that's all convictions. So such a distinction is impossible.

Not at all. 'Beyond a reasonable doubt' doesn't equate to certainty.

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27-07-2014, 06:09 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
What Rev said it probably true, and what CJLR said isn't exactly clear to me.

My position is that certain actions are completely unacceptable in a society (mostly premeditated murders), and when an individual does such actions, the society in which that person lives would be better off without that person. If imprisonment had no or a negligible expense, or if exile was an option, I would think those would be okay ways to handle these individuals. But since we don't have a good way to eject them from the society, I think the death penalty is both "fair" and the course of action that is least detrimental to society. This is of course assuming the person actually did the crime.

Also, I don't see a better way to communicate, "there are some things that must absolutely not be done" than appealing to most people's ultimate fear, their mortality.

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27-07-2014, 06:58 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 06:09 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  My position is that certain actions are completely unacceptable in a society (mostly premeditated murders), and when an individual does such actions, the society in which that person lives would be better off without that person.

Sure, why not.

(27-07-2014 06:09 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  If imprisonment had no or a negligible expense, or if exile was an option, I would think those would be okay ways to handle these individuals. But since we don't have a good way to eject them from the society, I think the death penalty is both "fair" and the course of action that is least detrimental to society. This is of course assuming the person actually did the crime.

And that doesn't follow. You can't mention cost as a factor without acknowledging that capital punishment is more expensive.

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27-07-2014, 07:07 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 06:58 PM)cjlr Wrote:  And that doesn't follow. You can't mention cost as a factor without acknowledging that capital punishment is more expensive.

Let's do a simple estimate and say the cost per year of incarceration is 30K for an inmate. Let's say a person commits first degree murder at age 25 and gets life imprisonment. If he spends 50 years in prison before dying, then a "simple" (I know other factors can affect this number) estimate of the cost is 50*30,000 or $1.5 million. The cost of capital punishment beats that out? If that's the case we are probably doing it wrong.

Of course just one example isn't representative.

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27-07-2014, 07:46 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 07:07 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(27-07-2014 06:58 PM)cjlr Wrote:  And that doesn't follow. You can't mention cost as a factor without acknowledging that capital punishment is more expensive.

Let's do a simple estimate and say the cost per year of incarceration is 30K for an inmate. Let's say a person commits first degree murder at age 25 and gets life imprisonment. If he spends 50 years in prison before dying, then a "simple" (I know other factors can affect this number) estimate of the cost is 50*30,000 or $1.5 million. The cost of capital punishment beats that out? If that's the case we are probably doing it wrong.

Of course just one example isn't representative.

No, there is no debate on this capital punishment cases cost 3-4 times the lifetime costs of non-capital cases. I linked a ton of studies in the thread cjlr linked upthread. It is cheaper to house a prisoner for 60+ years than it is to execute them.

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27-07-2014, 07:55 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 07:07 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(27-07-2014 06:58 PM)cjlr Wrote:  And that doesn't follow. You can't mention cost as a factor without acknowledging that capital punishment is more expensive.

Let's do a simple estimate and say the cost per year of incarceration is 30K for an inmate. Let's say a person commits first degree murder at age 25 and gets life imprisonment. If he spends 50 years in prison before dying, then a "simple" (I know other factors can affect this number) estimate of the cost is 50*30,000 or $1.5 million. The cost of capital punishment beats that out? If that's the case we are probably doing it wrong.

Of course just one example isn't representative.

Hypotheticals don't matter here.

We have the actual data. Rev provided it.

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27-07-2014, 08:22 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
Hypotheticals are just easier to digest, but sure we can look at the data.

Hmm, this data varies greatly by state, but if I just look at my own state (Washington) the cost of a death penalty case over a non-death penalty case is somewhere between $500K and $800K. Given that average annual cost per inmate here is $46,897(http://www.vera.org/files/price-of-priso...vised.pdf) after about 17 years you have exceeded the excess cost of a death-penalty case. Still much greater than I would have thought, but nowhere near 60 years.

Which states have a cost of a death penalty case (over the cost of a non death penalty case) that gets close to the cost of 60 years of incarceration?

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