Botched Lethal Injections in the US
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27-07-2014, 08:25 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
Or just a single example of a state where this is true is fine. I'd be interested to know.

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27-07-2014, 08:32 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 08:25 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Or just a single example of a state where this is true is fine. I'd be interested to know.

Did you read the link?

California:
"The authors calculated that, if the Governor commuted the sentences of those remaining on death row to life without parole, it would result in an immediate savings of $170 million per year, with a savings of $5 billion over the next 20 years."
Data ultimately sourced from here.

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27-07-2014, 08:42 PM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2014 08:50 PM by cjlr.)
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 08:22 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Hypotheticals are just easier to digest, but sure we can look at the data.

Hmm, this data varies greatly by state, but if I just look at my own state (Washington) the cost of a death penalty case over a non-death penalty case is somewhere between $500K and $800K. Given that average annual cost per inmate here is $46,897(http://www.vera.org/files/price-of-priso...vised.pdf) after about 17 years you have exceeded the excess cost of a death-penalty case. Still much greater than I would have thought, but nowhere near 60 years.

Which states have a cost of a death penalty case (over the cost of a non death penalty case) that gets close to the cost of 60 years of incarceration?

Where does that 60 year figure come from? Simple statistics say it's literally impossible for that to be the average duration of a life sentence.

Life sentences without parole themselves present quite a few issues in any case.

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27-07-2014, 08:55 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
My father was a defense attorney for nearly 30 years. Unlike what shows like Law&Order like to tell people, the job of the defense attorney is not to get hardened criminals the most lenient sentence possible so they can go back into the world and commit more crimes. Their job is to ensure that the defendant, whether they stole a TV or murdered someone, receives a fair trial and is charged accordingly--a punishment that fits the crime. My father had client after client who was wrongfully accused or given charges that were unfair. He dealt with dirty cops and attorneys left and right. He also had many clients who were guilty of heinous crimes, and he did his best to ensure that they were charged accordingly. He told me many times that he would have clients who'd done terrible things...whether they be sociopaths, have severe mental problems, or whathaveyou. Sometimes he would wonder if the world really would be better off without some of them. And we all think that, I know I do. But then my father would tell me that we're all human, and it isn't human to serve death. Now I get it-- giving a serial killer, child abuser, or multiple rapist a lethal injection doesn't seem like it'll alleviate all the pain caused by someone who has caused so much pain to others, but it is DEATH. And like my father, I believe that it shouldn't be done, even more so with this recent death penalty sentence gone wrong. We could talk all day about who "deserves it," but to me, it's just plain wrong that we've still got the death penalty in states in this country, and that we're screwing it up to the point where someone's got to suffer for two hours before they finally die. We have a RIGHT in this country against cruel and unusual punishment. I don't know how these executions are getting botched, but it's not the first time it's happened in recent memory. It's not a deterrent...and I believe it's just not human. There are other solutions.

Also, I think that allowing people to decide how criminals should suffer in terms of the death penalty would lead to serious problems in the future. Those punishments could extend to criminals who have committed lesser crimes, and maybe even to people who don't comply with whatever moral standard the people in power have created. And maybe that sounds like a distopian novel to some people, but who knows....it is NOT something I would want to be seen expanded on.

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27-07-2014, 08:59 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
Could we please stop talking about the costs as if any of us would change our respective opinions on the death penalty if the statistics were to change? If 10 years from now it's cheaper to execute than to house, I'll still be for the DP, and some people will still be against it.

As 100% of successfully executed criminals have 0% chance of ever hurting anyone again, at what point do we disregard the rights of a convicted murderer in favor of everyone else's inalienable right not to be murdered by an escaped convict who's taken his "lifer" status as a badge of honor from the moment he achieved it?

The death penalty is as benign as a butter knife until that king-shit cop, who wouldn't even let poor Rambo grab a bite to eat at a local diner... Crickets ... Crickets ..., uses either one maliciously, or incompetently! Sure rework the death penalty, and shave the serrations off the butter knife, to make both safer, but don't get rid of them; fix them, and focus on catching all those king shit cops! By all means send them to prison for however long the judge arbitrarily Dodgy decides is long enough for them to sit and think about all the bad things they've done.

But I can't jump on this bandwagon without stipulations that some exceptions be made to the " never allowed for any reason ever no matter what the circumstances" rule against executing walking talking horror movies! Some people are simply too dangerous to be allowed to stick around to manipulate, and/or influence, the thinking of the people around them, much less try to harm those around him/her.
Your not going to stop the media from wanting to interview (and inadvertently glorifying from time to time) these whack-a-loons! Everyone knows Manson's batshit crazy, but I'm talking more along the lines of a Richard 'The IceMan' Kuklinski. Smug answers, and self-satisfied smirks of win, while talking about how many people they killed? If even one person (on the OUTSIDE) finds that shit "cool", and wants to be like "that guy", it's one too many. And I'm not even saying Kuklinski would be a candidate for the new and greatly improved system for applying the death penalty, but some people simply! need! to! go! Until we create a penal colony on a moon somewhere so we can ship them the hell off, and away, from the people I know, and care about, I'll be for the death penalty. Sorry.

*Ballot Box for dropping in your vote for/against death penalty right next to Guard Duty sign up sheet for Hannibal Lecter*
*Ballot Box full*
*Guard Duty sign up sheet empty* Undecided

But if the feels is too strong with these ones to acknowledge that any " never for any reason ever " rule is an unreasonable one I do have a condition, that if met, could sway me to jump on this bandwagon....

We simultaneously do away with the euthanization of all dogs everywhere no matter what they did to the neighbor kid! Big Grin Hey dogs are people, too, man, dogs are people too Sadcryface , and they are ALL innocent of premeditated malicious intent!!! Kibbles-n-Bits can't be that expensive, people!

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27-07-2014, 09:09 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 08:59 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Could we please stop talking about the costs as if any of us would change our respective opinions on the death penalty if the statistics were to change? If 10 years from now it's cheaper to execute than to house, I'll still be for the DP, and some people will still be against it.

As 100% of successfully executed criminals have 0% chance of ever hurting anyone again, at what point do we disregard the rights of a convicted murderer in favor of everyone else's inalienable right not to be murdered by an escaped convict who's taken his "lifer" status as a badge of honor from the moment he achieved it?

The death penalty is as benign as a butter knife until that king-shit cop, who wouldn't even let poor Rambo grab a bite to eat at a local diner... Crickets ... Crickets ..., uses either one maliciously, or incompetently! Sure rework the death penalty, and shave the serrations off the butter knife, to make both safer, but don't get rid of them; fix them, and focus on catching all those king shit cops! By all means send them to prison for however long the judge arbitrarily Dodgy decides is long enough for them to sit and think about all the bad things they've done.

But I can't jump on this bandwagon without stipulations that some exceptions be made to the " never allowed for any reason ever no matter what the circumstances" rule against executing walking talking horror movies! Some people are simply too dangerous to be allowed to stick around to manipulate, and/or influence, the thinking of the people around them, much less try to harm those around him/her.
Your not going to stop the media from wanting to interview (and inadvertently glorifying from time to time) these whack-a-loons! Everyone knows Manson's batshit crazy, but I'm talking more along the lines of a Richard 'The IceMan' Kuklinski. Smug answers, and self-satisfied smirks of win, while talking about how many people they killed? If even one person (on the OUTSIDE) finds that shit "cool", and wants to be like "that guy", it's one too many. And I'm not even saying Kuklinski would be a candidate for the new and greatly improved system for applying the death penalty, but some people simply! need! to! go! Until we create a penal colony on a moon somewhere so we can ship them the hell off, and away, from the people I know, and care about, I'll be for the death penalty. Sorry.

*Ballot Box for dropping in your vote for/against death penalty right next to Guard Duty sign up sheet for Hannibal Lecter*
*Ballot Box full*
*Guard Duty sign up sheet empty* Undecided

But if the feels is too strong with these ones to acknowledge that any " never for any reason ever " rule is an unreasonable one I do have a condition, that if met, could sway me to jump on this bandwagon....

We simultaneously do away with the euthanization of all dogs everywhere no matter what they did to the neighbor kid! Big Grin Hey dogs are people, too, man, dogs are people too Sadcryface , and they are ALL innocent of premeditated malicious intent!!! Kibbles-n-Bits can't be that expensive, people!

Tongue

Was there a point to that rambling?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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27-07-2014, 09:18 PM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2014 09:33 PM by TheGulegon.)
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 09:09 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(27-07-2014 08:59 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Could we please stop talking about the costs as if any of us would change our respective opinions on the death penalty if the statistics were to change? If 10 years from now it's cheaper to execute than to house, I'll still be for the DP, and some people will still be against it.

As 100% of successfully executed criminals have 0% chance of ever hurting anyone again, at what point do we disregard the rights of a convicted murderer in favor of everyone else's inalienable right not to be murdered by an escaped convict who's taken his "lifer" status as a badge of honor from the moment he achieved it?

The death penalty is as benign as a butter knife until that king-shit cop, who wouldn't even let poor Rambo grab a bite to eat at a local diner... Crickets ... Crickets ..., uses either one maliciously, or incompetently! Sure rework the death penalty, and shave the serrations off the butter knife, to make both safer, but don't get rid of them; fix them, and focus on catching all those king shit cops! By all means send them to prison for however long the judge arbitrarily Dodgy decides is long enough for them to sit and think about all the bad things they've done.

But I can't jump on this bandwagon without stipulations that some exceptions be made to the " never allowed for any reason ever no matter what the circumstances" rule against executing walking talking horror movies! Some people are simply too dangerous to be allowed to stick around to manipulate, and/or influence, the thinking of the people around them, much less try to harm those around him/her.
Your not going to stop the media from wanting to interview (and inadvertently glorifying from time to time) these whack-a-loons! Everyone knows Manson's batshit crazy, but I'm talking more along the lines of a Richard 'The IceMan' Kuklinski. Smug answers, and self-satisfied smirks of win, while talking about how many people they killed? If even one person (on the OUTSIDE) finds that shit "cool", and wants to be like "that guy", it's one too many. And I'm not even saying Kuklinski would be a candidate for the new and greatly improved system for applying the death penalty, but some people simply! need! to! go! Until we create a penal colony on a moon somewhere so we can ship them the hell off, and away, from the people I know, and care about, I'll be for the death penalty. Sorry.

*Ballot Box for dropping in your vote for/against death penalty right next to Guard Duty sign up sheet for Hannibal Lecter*
*Ballot Box full*
*Guard Duty sign up sheet empty* Undecided

But if the feels is too strong with these ones to acknowledge that any " never for any reason ever " rule is an unreasonable one I do have a condition, that if met, could sway me to jump on this bandwagon....

We simultaneously do away with the euthanization of all dogs everywhere no matter what they did to the neighbor kid! Big Grin Hey dogs are people, too, man, dogs are people too Sadcryface , and they are ALL innocent of premeditated malicious intent!!! Kibbles-n-Bits can't be that expensive, people!

Tongue

Was there a point to that rambling?

Yes Shy Several

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27-07-2014, 09:24 PM (This post was last modified: 28-07-2014 01:26 AM by Adrianime.)
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
My position actually would possibly shift if I had all the information and saw that the death penalty cost more than life imprisonment (Although that scenario would really point out how ridiculous our "justice system" is).

And CJLR, no I didn't read the entire link that covered the data on 50 states (I apologize, but I really don't want to spend my time reading the data on 50 different states just to see if what you guys are saying is true.). I skimmed a few states and then went to read the data on my state to form an example meaningful to me. Also, the 60 years came from Rev's declaration that the DP cases cost more than housing a prisoner for 60+ years.

As for California's data, let me see...The numbers show overall program costs, but they don't really describe very well why the cost is higher than a non Death Penalty case. In my lack of interest in spending my Sunday reading this information, I'll give the data there a temporary pass and just assume the results are correct.

And with that I'll say that's definitely information that I never knew about, and it gives me something to think about. Mostly that the entire system in California needs a huge amount of reform if the death penalty incurs so much more cost than a non- death penalty case. But ultimately, while I think it is fair to kill a killer, I don't think there is much sense in spending more to do so than it would cost to incarcerate them for life. I also don't think in an efficient and solid legal system it would cost more. I do still think as a deterrent it is a powerful statement to give the death penalty for first degree murder (at least). But if the cost of doing so greatly outweighs the cost of not doing it (in some places), the burden that falls on society is probably not worth it in the current system (in some places).

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27-07-2014, 09:31 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
(27-07-2014 09:24 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  My position actually would possibly shift if I had all the information and saw that the death penalty cost more than life imprisonment (Although that scenario would really point out how ridiculous our "justice system" is).

And CJLR, no I didn't read the entire link that covered the data on 50 states (I apologize, but I really don't want to spend my time reading the data on 50 different states just to see if what you guys is saying is true.). I skimmed a few states and then went to read the data on my state to form an example meaningful to me. Also, the 60 years came from Rev's declaration that the DP cases cost more than housing a prisoner for 60+ years.

As for California's data, let me see...The numbers show overall program costs, but they don't really describe very well why the cost is higher than a non Death Penalty case. In my lack of interest in spending my Sunday reading this information, I'll give the data there a temporary pass and just assume the results are correct.

And with that I'll say that's definitely information that I never knew about, and it gives me something to think about. Mostly that the entire system in California needs a huge amount of reform if the death penalty incurs so much more cost than a non- death penalty case. But ultimately, while I think it is fair to kill a killer, I don't think there is much sense in spending more to do so than it would cost to incarcerate them for life. I also don't think in an efficient and solid legal system it would cost more. I do still think as a deterrent it is a powerful statement to give the death penalty for first degree murder (at least). But if the cost of doing greatly outweighs the cost of not doing it (in some places) the burden that falls on society is probably not worth it in the current system (in some places)

So the fact that the Death Penalty has 0 effectiveness as a deterrent should be the next thing we explore.

Quote: For 2012, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.7, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.7

For 2011, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.7, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.1

For 2010, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.6, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.9

For 2009, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.9, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.8

For 2008, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 5.2, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.3

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-r...tate#MRord

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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27-07-2014, 10:05 PM
RE: Botched Lethal Injections in the US
Haha, maybe another time. My main issue was spending so much money to imprison people for life. The whole prison system as it stands is a bit ridiculous IMO.

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