Brain vs soul.
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15-03-2017, 09:23 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 02:32 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
Dictionary.com
Awareness = Consciousness
Consciousness = Self Awareness
Paradox

I prefer to think of it as
Awareness = Having the ability to receive information
Self = A unique observer (not necessarily physical)
Self Awareness = A unique observer capable of receiving information

Therefore everything is aware, but not everything is self aware.
...

Do you see what you did there?
My iPhone is aware?

Let's have a look at your formula:
If A = x and B = y, then B+A = yx

This could make a good game. Lemme try...

Book = make an official record of the name and other personal details of (a criminal suspect or offender)
Face = confront and deal with or accept
Facebook = confront and deal with or accept making an official record of an offender

Therefore Facebook is a way of confronting those you find offensive.

Other definitions you might like:

Cabaret - wide range of taxis for hire

Chairs - toast by the Queen

Delight - make things go darker

Doughnut - eccentric millionaire

Equip - joke online

Extemporary - permanent

Inhabit - dressed as a monk

Ketchup - posh word for drawing level

Khaki - device for starting car

Minimal - small shopping centre

Mucus - feline swear word

Negligent - Male lingerie

Notable - full restaurant

Overrate - nine

Paradox - two medics

Parasites - view from Eiffel Tower

Plaintiff - argument with stewardess

Property - decent cuppa

Quadrant - four people shouting

Ramshackle - male chastity belt

Xenophobia - fear of Buddhists

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15-03-2017, 09:40 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 09:23 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 02:32 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
Dictionary.com
Awareness = Consciousness
Consciousness = Self Awareness
Paradox

I prefer to think of it as
Awareness = Having the ability to receive information
Self = A unique observer (not necessarily physical)
Self Awareness = A unique observer capable of receiving information

Therefore everything is aware, but not everything is self aware.
...

Do you see what you did there?
My iPhone is aware?

Let's have a look at your formula:
If A = x and B = y, then B+A = yx

This could make a good game. Lemme try...

Book = make an official record of the name and other personal details of (a criminal suspect or offender)
Face = confront and deal with or accept
Facebook = confront and deal with or accept making an official record of an offender

Therefore Facebook is a way of confronting those you find offensive.

Other definitions you might like:

Cabaret - wide range of taxis for hire

Chairs - toast by the Queen

Delight - make things go darker

Doughnut - eccentric millionaire

Equip - joke online

Extemporary - permanent

Inhabit - dressed as a monk

Ketchup - posh word for drawing level

Khaki - device for starting car

Minimal - small shopping centre

Mucus - feline swear word

Negligent - Male lingerie

Notable - full restaurant

Overrate - nine

Paradox - two medics

Parasites - view from Eiffel Tower

Plaintiff - argument with stewardess

Property - decent cuppa

Quadrant - four people shouting

Ramshackle - male chastity belt

Xenophobia - fear of Buddhists

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This is how your post made me feel DLJ
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DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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16-03-2017, 12:38 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
I'm always troubled by this issue to some extent.

What does it even mean to be "self-aware"? What's the difference between something that is self-aware, and a clone of that thing that acts exactly in the same way but isn't self-aware?

It feels like woo talk, after a while. It seems like I am "self aware", but scientifically I am just a brain exhibiting a certain level of consciousness. How can I ever know if anyone else really is having an experience, like I appear to be, or whether they just "think" they are, or say they are?

Is it just part of how brains work, that they "think" they are self aware?

It really is a paradox for me. The only direct experience I have of anything appears to be an unscientific phenomenon that I can't even properly define, and certainly can't test for. I dismiss myself as woo!?

The solution appears to be to say that consciousness is the experience, but it still feels unsatisfactory.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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16-03-2017, 02:23 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(16-03-2017 12:38 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I'm always troubled by this issue to some extent.

What does it even mean to be "self-aware"? What's the difference between something that is self-aware, and a clone of that thing that acts exactly in the same way but isn't self-aware?

It feels like woo talk, after a while. It seems like I am "self aware", but scientifically I am just a brain exhibiting a certain level of consciousness. How can I ever know if anyone else really is having an experience, like I appear to be, or whether they just "think" they are, or say they are?

Is it just part of how brains work, that they "think" they are self aware?

It really is a paradox for me. The only direct experience I have of anything appears to be an unscientific phenomenon that I can't even properly define, and certainly can't test for. I dismiss myself as woo!?

The solution appears to be to say that consciousness is the experience, but it still feels unsatisfactory.

Yea, I totally get you, I don't know if you saw my post that had a link on the 5 levels of self awareness, and I don't know how much you've read into how we test for it. But I suspect even if you've read quite a bit you may always have that small nagging question.

It strikes me the quality of solipsism, and to that I don't think it would be reasonable to expect you to ever feel 100% comfortable. After all I don't think anyone has reasonably solved the question of hard solipsism. It's similar to the point I made about how objective morality doesn't really exist (or I don't think we should adopt it), however if we can get 99% of the way there we're doing pretty damn good in my book. At least that's what I think.

So I kinda get you on this.... I think.....
And I think what you say makes a lot of sense to me.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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16-03-2017, 02:44 AM (This post was last modified: 16-03-2017 02:49 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Brain vs soul.
Thank you Smile

I haven't checked out those links, if my brain is up to it I'll check them out soon.

Indeed, we're basically discussing the problems of hard solipsism. There's two levels of it, to me:

(1) Is reality what it appears to be, or am "I" actually somewhere else, being artificially fed this experience?

(2) If "I" really am here, am I the only one having "an experience", or is everyone else having one too?

I agree, there are no hard answers to these questions. Ultimately, they don't matter. Even if the answer was "no" to either question, I'd carry on acting the same way. So I don't even have to assume they are true.

I appreciate that we can scientifically test for something and call it "self-awareness". And that's totally cool. But the problem is that I can never test anyone else to see if they are having an experience. I can simply accept that scientifically they should be having one, but I can only ever see the expression of it.

So scientifically, I can so far just accept that consciousness=experience. But then if we create a computer which exhibits all the signs of consciousness, is that then having an experience? I end up concluding that probably many more things are having an experience than we realize. Maybe everything. But what is an experience, anyway? At this point, language becomes so difficult.

Even trying to define what "I" am is, of course, problematic. Scientifically I'm just a load of stuff stuck together. I can see why those not of scientific inclination so easily credit us with "souls" and such nonsense, to try and fill the gap.

This is all just thought experiments, ultimately. It has no practical implications at all. I just enjoy thinking about these things.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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16-03-2017, 07:18 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 09:23 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 02:32 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
Dictionary.com
Awareness = Consciousness
Consciousness = Self Awareness
Paradox

I prefer to think of it as
Awareness = Having the ability to receive information
Self = A unique observer (not necessarily physical)
Self Awareness = A unique observer capable of receiving information

Therefore everything is aware, but not everything is self aware.
...

Do you see what you did there?
My iPhone is aware?

Let's have a look at your formula:
If A = x and B = y, then B+A = yx

This could make a good game. Lemme try...

Book = make an official record of the name and other personal details of (a criminal suspect or offender)
Face = confront and deal with or accept
Facebook = confront and deal with or accept making an official record of an offender

Therefore Facebook is a way of confronting those you find offensive.

Other definitions you might like:

Cabaret - wide range of taxis for hire

Chairs - toast by the Queen

Delight - make things go darker

Doughnut - eccentric millionaire

Equip - joke online

Extemporary - permanent

Inhabit - dressed as a monk

Ketchup - posh word for drawing level

Khaki - device for starting car

Minimal - small shopping centre

Mucus - feline swear word

Negligent - Male lingerie

Notable - full restaurant

Overrate - nine

Paradox - two medics

Parasites - view from Eiffel Tower

Plaintiff - argument with stewardess

Property - decent cuppa

Quadrant - four people shouting

Ramshackle - male chastity belt

Xenophobia - fear of Buddhists

Thumbsup
Back to Semantics again?
Wiki:
An observer is one who engages in observation or in watching an experiment.
An Iphone does not of it's own self engage in anything. It does not decide to observe unless it is instructed & programmed to do so.
So no No, an Iphone cannot be self aware based on my definition of Self Awareness.

We keep doing this back & forth & you keep ignoring my counter rebuttals.
If I am wrong how am I to learn if you don't address my counter rebuttals?
Can you at least address this one before jumping to another counter argument.
For the sake of good debating if nothing else.

I'm begging you to take the whip & hit me, but all you keep doing is brandishing it very mildly.
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16-03-2017, 07:27 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(16-03-2017 12:38 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  It really is a paradox for me. The only direct experience I have of anything appears to be an unscientific phenomenon that I can't even properly define, and certainly can't test for. I dismiss myself as woo!?

Welcome to Gwynnite. Spread the word. Angel

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16-03-2017, 08:13 AM (This post was last modified: 16-03-2017 08:30 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Brain vs soul.
(16-03-2017 02:23 AM)JesseB Wrote:  
(16-03-2017 12:38 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I'm always troubled by this issue to some extent.

What does it even mean to be "self-aware"? What's the difference between something that is self-aware, and a clone of that thing that acts exactly in the same way but isn't self-aware?

It feels like woo talk, after a while. It seems like I am "self aware", but scientifically I am just a brain exhibiting a certain level of consciousness. How can I ever know if anyone else really is having an experience, like I appear to be, or whether they just "think" they are, or say they are?

Is it just part of how brains work, that they "think" they are self aware?

It really is a paradox for me. The only direct experience I have of anything appears to be an unscientific phenomenon that I can't even properly define, and certainly can't test for. I dismiss myself as woo!?

The solution appears to be to say that consciousness is the experience, but it still feels unsatisfactory.

Yea, I totally get you, I don't know if you saw my post that had a link on the 5 levels of self awareness, and I don't know how much you've read into how we test for it. But I suspect even if you've read quite a bit you may always have that small nagging question.

It strikes me the quality of solipsism, and to that I don't think it would be reasonable to expect you to ever feel 100% comfortable. After all I don't think anyone has reasonably solved the question of hard solipsism. It's similar to the point I made about how objective morality doesn't really exist (or I don't think we should adopt it), however if we can get 99% of the way there we're doing pretty damn good in my book. At least that's what I think.

So I kinda get you on this.... I think.....
And I think what you say makes a lot of sense to me.
I have embraced Gnostic Atheism today. In fact I made the decision at the end of this post by examining the logic behind my statements. Everyone should read this. Comments welcomed.

This was how my post evolved:
I am a Semi-Solipsist & it does not make me feel uncomfortable.
It's a myth that Solipsists believe they are the ONLY thing that exists though.
They simply believe "the self", as in our thoughts, is the only thing that can be fundamentally PROVEN to exist.
Descartes said:
"I Think, therefore I am."
Beyond that we could be just a brain in a vat. There is no known way of proving otherwise.

However;
I took my Solipsism down a notch when I realized that my thoughts are not the only thoughts that exist. We get new thoughts from sources outside our own thought process every day. To claim that "Our" thoughts are the only things that exist is quite naive.

I prefer to say "thoughts are the only thing that can be fundamentally proven to exist"
My first post on these forums was about my downgraded Solipsism but it was not well received. I was crucified for it.
The main reason for this is because, although fundamentally true it seems to be a useless truth but is it useless?

Solipsism comes in very handy when someone thinks they KNOW the truth.
Do you know how ridiculous it sounds (to me) every time I hear someone ask for proof as if to say this proof will somehow bring you closer to an objective reality?
It only brings you closer to a logical necessity within the framework of perception.
Absolute Truth outside of personal perception is absolutely unknowable. See my signature.

Which brings me to God & how I became a Gnostic Atheist today. God does not Exist.
If God = the highest authority which governs all things, but God cannot govern knowledge, then God does not govern all things.

God can only guess that he is God, but he can never know.
God has to be a Solipsist. If knowledge & power is the fundamental attribute of God then God is impossible to prove. Since no being can prove this, then no being can make this claim honestly they are being dishonest.

I am now Gnostic on the concept of God not because there is no evidence for God but because you cannot logically be a God if you don't KNOW you are a God. God's Power is just an illusion based on a lack of external knowledge.
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16-03-2017, 08:46 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
Tweaking my above post a bit.

Mom won't allow me to make a new thread (i've been naughty) so I'll just post this here instead:

Why God cannot exist:

Logically, God Cannot Exist
Fundamental Attribute of God = Knowledge & Power
Can a God know it is a God? No, it can only guess that it is.
Can a God know it is the source of it's own power? No, it can only guess that it is.
Can a God prove to itself that it is God? No, it can only guess that it is.
How can a God prove to us that it is God if it cannot prove to ITSELF that it is God?

Saying God exists is like saying Circular Squares exist. It is logically impossible.

Today I have gone from Agnostic Atheism to Gnostic Atheism because of the above logic. If anyone is willing to debate this logic I welcome it.
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16-03-2017, 11:30 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(16-03-2017 07:18 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 09:23 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Do you see what you did there?
My iPhone is aware?
Back to Semantics again?
Wiki:
An observer is one who engages in observation or in watching an experiment.
An Iphone does not of it's own self engage in anything. It does not decide to observe unless it is instructed & programmed to do so.
So no No, an Iphone cannot be self aware based on my definition of Self Awareness.

We keep doing this back & forth & you keep ignoring my counter rebuttals.
If I am wrong how am I to learn if you don't address my counter rebuttals?
Can you at least address this one before jumping to another counter argument.
For the sake of good debating if nothing else.

I'm begging you to take the whip & hit me, but all you keep doing is brandishing it very mildly.

You missed the point. You said everything is "aware" but not everything is "self-aware".

By that line that everything is "aware" an iPhone, is aware.

To you, a rock is "aware" so it's on you prove how you tested the rock or iPhone's awareness.

I would posit that inanimate things cannot be aware -- at all. Self awareness is then irrelevant.

Animals can be aware, but if they are self aware is matter for debate.

Also it doesn't matter what you call yourself today, tomorrow or next week, if your arguments aren't sound.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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