Brain vs soul.
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17-03-2017, 08:33 PM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2017 08:41 PM by Robvalue.)
RE: Brain vs soul.
This is an analogy I came up with in another thread, in case it's any use:

If we think of a brain as the sea, then consciousness is like waves that form on the sea.

The idea of consciousness existing without a brain is like those waves existing without the sea. I'm not trying to prove it's impossible, I'm just showing that the idea doesn't even appear to be coherent.

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17-03-2017, 08:35 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(17-03-2017 08:08 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It literally takes less than 10 seconds to show you how dumb your argument is.
Shane: What causes Self awareness in the human body?
You: The brain
Facepalm
You do know your brain is part of your body right?
Drinking Beverage
Circular Logic FTW No
Meh, I tried to start it at 17 seconds but it does the whole clip anyway.



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17-03-2017, 09:24 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
It wouldn't be self-awareness if something that wasn't part of the self was being aware of you...

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17-03-2017, 10:35 PM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2017 10:46 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Brain vs soul.
(17-03-2017 08:28 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  
(17-03-2017 08:08 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It literally takes less than 10 seconds to show you how dumb your argument is.
Shane: What causes Self awareness in the human body?
You: The brain
Facepalm
You do know your brain is part of your body right?
Drinking Beverage
Circular Logic FTW No

Yes the brain is a part of the body, and so is the stomach. But the stomach isn't self-aware, the brain is. What self is the brain aware of? The body. How is it aware of the body? Through the nervous system, which take messages from all over the body to the brain to be synthesized and interpreted. The brain is specialized for this function -- and for operating in the external world -- just as the stomach is specialized for digesting food.

Why is this circular?

Huh
It's Circular because the cause of something cannot lie within that something. It has to be outside of the system for it to be a cause or it does not satisfy the question.
Why is this so hard to understand?

Wiki:
Causality (also referred to as causation, or cause and effect) is the agency or efficacy that connects one process (the cause) with another process or state (the effect), where the first is understood to be partly responsible for the second, and the second is dependent on the first.

You cannot exclude the brain from the body when speaking about the entire body. It's an impossible reality.

It's illogical to claim:
The brain is the cause of self awareness in the brain (a subset of the entire body).
That's circular logic

My grandma used to say common sense comes before book sense.
You cannot examine the science of a claim if the claim is not logical to begin with.
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17-03-2017, 10:44 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(17-03-2017 09:24 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  It wouldn't be self-awareness if something that wasn't part of the self was being aware of you...
This is also circular logic.
If you start your argument with "X does not exist therefore X cannot exist" it is considered circular logic.

You are presupposing that the self (soul concept) & the body are one.

That's what this topic is about.
We are trying to determine if the Self (soul concept) & the body could be separate or not.
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17-03-2017, 10:44 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(17-03-2017 08:28 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  ...
Yes the brain is a part of the body, and so is the stomach. But the stomach isn't self-aware, the brain is. What self is the brain aware of? The body. How is it aware of the body? Through the nervous system, which take messages from all over the body to the brain to be synthesized and interpreted. The brain is specialized for this function -- and for operating in the external world -- just as the stomach is specialized for digesting food.
...

I agree with what you say but I'm going to take issue with the way you said it.

I would argue that the stomach is self-aware... but not consciously self-aware.

The stomach has been referred to as the second brain but in my view it's our first brain and controls gut reactions independent of our head-brain. It even continues working after death (although not for long).

I say self-aware in the sense that it is self-monitoring and reactive to events (stimulus) within its limited domain (self). But the head-brain goes beyond that by having monitoring of all the self-monitoring systems.

In management terminology, the gut would be the Operational Brain and the noggin would be the Strategic Brain.

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17-03-2017, 10:49 PM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2017 10:54 PM by JesseB.)
RE: Brain vs soul.
(17-03-2017 10:35 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(17-03-2017 08:28 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  Yes the brain is a part of the body, and so is the stomach. But the stomach isn't self-aware, the brain is. What self is the brain aware of? The body. How is it aware of the body? Through the nervous system, which take messages from all over the body to the brain to be synthesized and interpreted. The brain is specialized for this function -- and for operating in the external world -- just as the stomach is specialized for digesting food.

Why is this circular?

Huh
It's Circular because the cause of something cannot lie within that something. It has to be outside of the system for it to be a cause or it does not satisfy the question.
Why is this so hard to understand?

Wiki:
Causality (also referred to as causation, or cause and effect) is the agency or efficacy that connects one process (the cause) with another process or state (the effect), where the first is understood to be partly responsible for the second, and the second is dependent on the first.

You cannot exclude the brain from the body when speaking about the entire body. It's an impossible reality.

It's illogical to claim:
The brain is the cause of self awareness in the brain (a subset of the entire body).
That's circular logic

My grandma used to say common sense comes before book sense.
You cannot examine the science of a claim if the claim is not logical to begin with.

What the fuck?

The brain is a biological organism, its "cause" is biological in nature. It's function is to process information, when this reaches a certain point self awareness occurs. This will be the same thing with computers and AI eventually, and could potentially happen in other animal species (actually already has in both to a lesser extent).

These are facts that are demonstrable and reasonably well understood.

The brain does not cause the brain dude what the fuck. I see your problem now... No one can help you with this if you continue to remain ignorant.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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17-03-2017, 10:53 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(17-03-2017 08:28 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  Yes the brain is a part of the body, and so is the stomach. But the stomach isn't self-aware, the brain is. What self is the brain aware of? The body.

Curiously, the brain spends most of its time blissfully unaware of itself. That's for the best. It's all fun and games until you start adding self-reference and negation.

#sigh
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17-03-2017, 10:56 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(17-03-2017 08:33 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  This is an analogy I came up with in another thread, in case it's any use:

If we think of a brain as the sea, then consciousness is like waves that form on the sea.

The idea of consciousness existing without a brain is like those waves existing without the sea. I'm not trying to prove it's impossible, I'm just showing that the idea doesn't even appear to be coherent.
It's very coherent. You are just using the wrong scenario.
Think of the brain as a PS4 & consciousness as a player using that PS4.
Can consciousness exist without the brain? Yes. Both PS4 & player exist separately but without the player the PS4 is useless.
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17-03-2017, 11:03 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(17-03-2017 10:44 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(17-03-2017 09:24 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  It wouldn't be self-awareness if something that wasn't part of the self was being aware of you...

This is also circular logic.

No, it isn't. It's a definition.

I can see how you got those two wholly unrelated concepts confused, though, seeing how you're a complete idiot and all.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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