Brain vs soul.
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17-03-2017, 11:05 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(17-03-2017 10:44 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(17-03-2017 08:28 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  ...
Yes the brain is a part of the body, and so is the stomach. But the stomach isn't self-aware, the brain is. What self is the brain aware of? The body. How is it aware of the body? Through the nervous system, which take messages from all over the body to the brain to be synthesized and interpreted. The brain is specialized for this function -- and for operating in the external world -- just as the stomach is specialized for digesting food.
...

I agree with what you say but I'm going to take issue with the way you said it.

I would argue that the stomach is self-aware... but not consciously self-aware.

The stomach has been referred to as the second brain but in my view it's our first brain and controls gut reactions independent of our head-brain. It even continues working after death (although not for long).

I say self-aware in the sense that it is self-monitoring and reactive to events (stimulus) within its limited domain (self). But the head-brain goes beyond that by having monitoring of all the self-monitoring systems.

In management terminology, the gut would be the Operational Brain and the noggin would be the Strategic Brain.

IDK bout you but sometimes my stomach becomes my 1st brain..... Just saying.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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17-03-2017, 11:07 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
Oh oh, Girly ... I think AShane is MegaMasturbator!

Hey Shane, do you play YuGiOh?

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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17-03-2017, 11:10 PM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2017 11:21 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Brain vs soul.
(17-03-2017 10:35 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It's Circular because the cause of something cannot lie within that something. It has to be outside of the system for it to be a cause or it does not satisfy the question.
Why is this so hard to understand?

It's illogical to claim:
The brain is the cause of self awareness in the brain (a subset of the entire body).
That's circular logic

My grandma used to say common sense comes before book sense.
You cannot examine the science of a claim if the claim is not logical to begin with.

No. It's neither illogical, or about "causation".
Consciousness "emerges" (it is not *caused*) by brains. Brains evolved over millions of years until they eventually had the capacity for consciousness. One brain does not *cause* it's own multiple functions. They evolved.
Emergence is not "causation". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence
The neurological systems EVOLVED, (for example the visual system is not *caused* by a brain). Brains evolved the capacity to interpret the way light enters the eye, and works on the optical systems. Nothing is *caused*. The word is inappropriate. Many things we observe EMERGE from properly functioning complex systems. It has nothing to do with "causation".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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17-03-2017, 11:36 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
Adding a "soul" is about as useful as adding "God". Any problems one has with the brain being the "boss" still apply to the soul instead. It's an unnecessary extra step that just raises more questions; particularly, "What the fuck is it anyway?".

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17-03-2017, 11:40 PM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2017 11:49 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Brain vs soul.
(17-03-2017 10:49 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(17-03-2017 10:35 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It's Circular because the cause of something cannot lie within that something. It has to be outside of the system for it to be a cause or it does not satisfy the question.
Why is this so hard to understand?

Wiki:
Causality (also referred to as causation, or cause and effect) is the agency or efficacy that connects one process (the cause) with another process or state (the effect), where the first is understood to be partly responsible for the second, and the second is dependent on the first.

You cannot exclude the brain from the body when speaking about the entire body. It's an impossible reality.

It's illogical to claim:
The brain is the cause of self awareness in the brain (a subset of the entire body).
That's circular logic

My grandma used to say common sense comes before book sense.
You cannot examine the science of a claim if the claim is not logical to begin with.

What the fuck?

The brain is a biological organism, its "cause" is biological in nature. It's function is to process information, when this reaches a certain point self awareness occurs. This will be the same thing with computers and AI eventually, and could potentially happen in other animal species (actually already has in both to a lesser extent).

These are facts that are demonstrable and reasonably well understood.

The brain does not cause the brain dude what the fuck. I see your problem now... No one can help you with this if you continue to remain ignorant.
Why do you think the brain precedes self awareness?
That's just an opinion, it's not a fact.

Here's why it's just an opinion:

This is the definition of self awareness:
Self-awareness is the ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals

Corals and jellyfish (Cnidarians) are just two animals that have no brain & are self aware.
They feed themselves & have sex without a brain. Are they not self aware based on the definition of self awareness?
Is this not an ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals.
What's that? Some book told you that they aren't self aware? Use your brain for Spaghetti Monster's sake. The definition is right in front of you, you don't need to read some opinionated book.

What's that?
Only humans can be self aware? That's an opinion, not a fact. Read it in some book again, i'm sure.

Just to recap.

You claim:
The brain precedes self awareness
Yet:
Brainless Jellyfishes are self aware

Both statements cannot be true.
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17-03-2017, 11:49 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(17-03-2017 11:40 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ... Wrote stuff...

Facepalm

There is just so much wrong with the above... I can't even..
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17-03-2017, 11:53 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(17-03-2017 11:40 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Corals and jellyfish (Cnidarians) are just two animals that have no brain & are self aware.
They feed themselves & have sex without a brain. Are they not self aware based on the definition of self awareness?
Is this not an ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals.

Do jellyfish have language? Do they give themselves a name to distinguish themselves from everything else? Do they have the mental capacity to formulate questions, let alone ask 'who am I?'

Near as we can tell, they do not. They may be aware of the environment, but they are not aware of the 'self' in the philosophical sense, in the same way humans can. Jellyfish are not contemplating 'I think, therefore I am'.

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18-03-2017, 12:10 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
Asking if a person has a "soul" is similar to me asking if someone else is having an "experience" like I am, or is just exhibiting all the outward indications of having one.

If there's no test, no way to distinguish between someone with and without these things, it's unfalsifiable. This makes them useless concepts scientifically, until such time as this can be addressed. How can I tell if someone has a soul, or just exhibits all the signs of having one but doesn't really? If the answer is, "There's no way to tell", then it's a useless concept. It doesn't mean it's not real, it just means it's untestable and unnecessary as far as models go. And there's no reason to think it's real, either.

Or if you just state it's impossible for a human to not have a soul then it's just again an unnecessary extra assumption.

I explain in detail why falsifiability is so important in this vid.




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18-03-2017, 12:13 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(17-03-2017 11:36 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  Adding a "soul" is about as useful as adding "God". Any problems one has with the brain being the "boss" still apply to the soul instead. It's an unnecessary extra step that just raises more questions; particularly, "What the fuck is it anyway?".
I posted this 2 days ago:

Soul:
The principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body.

Do you see any mention of an afterlife here? Yes I agree it is generally associated with the afterlife by theists, but I am not a theist so I'll just stick with the above definition until further data can be provided.

It's a copy/paste from dictionary.com btw

I posit that "the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action" in any living thing is what we call self awareness.
I further posit that the self awareness still occurs once one is not brain dead.
I further posit that the cause of self awareness is not the brain because brainless jelly fishes ARE self aware.

I posit it is more rational to believe that self awareness occurs external to the body than to believe it exists somewhere in the body.
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18-03-2017, 12:19 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(18-03-2017 12:13 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(17-03-2017 11:36 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  Adding a "soul" is about as useful as adding "God". Any problems one has with the brain being the "boss" still apply to the soul instead. It's an unnecessary extra step that just raises more questions; particularly, "What the fuck is it anyway?".
I posted this 2 days ago:

Soul:
The principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body.

Do you see any mention of an afterlife here? Yes I agree it is generally associated with the afterlife by theists, but I am not a theist so I'll just stick with the above definition until further data can be provided.

It's a copy/paste from dictionary.com btw

I posit that "the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action" in any living thing is what we call self awareness.
I further posit that the self awareness still occurs once one is not brain dead.
I further posit that the cause of self awareness is not the brain because brainless jelly fishes ARE self aware.

I posit it is more rational to believe that self awareness occurs external to the body than to believe it exists somewhere in the body.

No.... I can't believe you don't understand this.

So what happens when computers become self aware? (I mean more so than some already are).

Edit^ Maybe you're not aware of current events in AI research. I have friends who work on this, and keep pretty up to date. So is your position that some magical force would give computers life?

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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